delivery reliability

jasonshapiro · 25 Nov 2007, 01:06 AM

I have a custom email address for my domain. I was using Google Apps but when I switched hosting providers I was not able to get Google Apps email to work. I am currently using IMAP or Horde through my hosting provider for email. When I first started using this mail they had some issues with the mail. Some messages were never delivered and customer support for my host is telling me that they recently switched servers and when they did that some domains, such as MSN, marked their message as spam and never delivered them. I use this email account a lot for work and don't want to worry about having undelivered messages or not receiving messages. Is this fairly normal or would I have better reliability with an email provider such as FastMail, GMail or Yahoo? Or any others I am possibly unaware of.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Jason

**ReuvenNY** · 25 Nov 2007, 02:19 AM

I don't know about Yahoo, but with Fastmail and Gmail you would definitely have a much better reliability.
ISP's are notorious in providing terrible email service. Website host are a bit better, but nowhere near companies that specialize in email service.

theog · 25 Nov 2007, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ReuvenNY

Website host are a bit better, but nowhere near companies that specialize in email service.

I agree. You would be much better off with domain for your site with domains live, gmail domains, fastmail, or everyone.net. Microsoft's live domains even have some type of settings that are suppose to prevent this issue... I meant to ask here about that but never got around to it... I've never seen such settings before (optional settings through dns).

I email a lot of new people through support questions everyday with everyone.net (for years now) and never had a complaint, that I can remember right now. Then again, I also use my webhosting provider also and never had an issue.

jasonshapiro · 25 Nov 2007, 12:03 PM

Thanks for the input. I was checking out live.com email but can't stand the tag lines it puts on the messages. It seems so unprofessional. I also tried GMail when I switched and just can't get it configured. Even when my hosting provider makes the MX changes it just doesn't seem to take.

theog · 25 Nov 2007, 02:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonshapiro

Thanks for the input. I was checking out live.com email but can't stand the tag lines it puts on the messages. It seems so unprofessional. I also tried GMail when I switched and just can't get it configured. Even when my hosting provider makes the MX changes it just doesn't seem to take.

No tag lines = $19 a year on Microsoft Live Hotmail.

You are asking your hosting provide to change your mx record... that might be an issue... if they can't get their own email to work properly, then maybe you are asking on a weekend when an apprentice is on duty. lol Seriously though, I've always had a control panel in which to make all my changes.

Read this page: http://www.google.com/support/a/bin/...n&answer=33352

That explains exactly how to change the info... try it yourself... not that hard, I promise.

If that does not work, then I'd consider moving to another web hosting company. http://www.webhostingtalk.com is a good place to look for a good company.

David MacQuigg · 25 Nov 2007, 05:36 PM

After trying to send mail from my own little transmitter, and running into similar problems with lost mail, I found there are only two solutions. Either make a serious effort to become a reputable sender, or let someone else handle your outgoing mail. I use controlledmail.com and yahoo.com. Controlledmail is nice if you ever have a technical problem. Yahoo has tremendous clout, so no competent receiver will lose mail from their transmitters. Yahoo also lets you use any return address you want, and I have many.

jasonshapiro · 25 Nov 2007, 08:42 PM

I tried the MX records in the past and it never worked. I tried the Google Apps again and it worked. Go figure.

Yahoo does seem to be the most reliable. I will experiment with the alias stuff and see if that works out but Yahoo is very slow on my laptop.

Thanks.

David MacQuigg · 26 Nov 2007, 12:03 AM

I have no data that Yahoo is more reliable for outgoing mail, just a guess based on my understanding of how receivers implement reputation checking. Mail from smaller services tends to get lost or marked as possible spam, regardless of its content. Reliability will be hard to measure, since we are talking about rare events that are hard to distinguish from normal inattention on the part of a recipient. Did they really not get your email, or are they just making an excuse so they can ignore you.

The one definite indication I had of a problem using my own transmitter, was that whenenver I sent email to my own Yahoo account, it got tagged as [bulk], regardless of content, and could easily be lost in the bulk of spam that normally gets that tag.

I've had no problem with the speed of sending mail via Yahoo's transmitter. I'm using a 256Kbit DSL line, and I have my email program (Eudora) set to use Yahoo's SMTP server. They require a login, but that happens only once a day. I do poll their POP server every ten minutes, so perhaps that is keeping the connection alive.

My guess as to what we would see if we could measure delivery reliability vs sender size, is that there is a plateau for senders above a certain size. Once you are in the top 100, you will be in almost every receiver's reputation database. Reliability would then diminish as you get smaller. This "unfairness" to small senders is what makes the big guys favor the status quo. It is also something we hope to remedy with our Registry of Internet Transmitters.

jasonshapiro · 26 Nov 2007, 05:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David MacQuigg

My guess as to what we would see if we could measure delivery reliability vs sender size, is that there is a plateau for senders above a certain size. Once you are in the top 100, you will be in almost every receiver's reputation database. Reliability would then diminish as you get smaller. This "unfairness" to small senders is what makes the big guys favor the status quo. It is also something we hope to remedy with our Registry of Internet Transmitters.

This makes sense. I assume you would consider GMail to be in this top 100. I supports all of the features I need, especially now that I have my hosted domain working with it.

David MacQuigg · 26 Nov 2007, 11:53 PM

I would not use Gmail for my outgoing mail. google.com is one of the few large ESPs that allows spam to be sent from their authorized transmitters. I have sent them spam reports, and get nothing but automated denials - we don't send spam, someone is forging our name! I replied that it was not a forgery, we used their chosen authentication method (PTR), and it did come from one of their transmitters. Instead of just looking at the IP address to see for themselves, they continued to sandbag and deny.

I took google.com off our whitelist, restored them a few months later, and found the problem had not been fixed. I took them off again. Now I will wait until someone tells me that the problem is fixed. I would like to have them as one of our reputable senders, but I cannot allow them to pollute our client's inboxes.

The problem is specifically with their webmail transmitters. If you are submitting mail via SMTP, it may not be a problem. Look at the heloname. If it ends in google.com, you are lumped in with those problematic transmitters. Google could easily solve the problem by using a different heloname for new webmail accounts.

If anyone from Google is listening, let's talk. I have tried to contact them and all I get is robots.

jasonshapiro · 27 Nov 2007, 01:19 AM

If I decide to use YahooMail does it matter if I have my hosting provider forward all messages to my Yahoo address or should I set up Yahoo to read the mail from my server via POP?

Thanks.

David MacQuigg · 27 Nov 2007, 11:54 PM

I thought we were talking only about *outgoing* mail. I don't use Yahoo for incoming, because I have a much better system on my own server. I like having a spam-free inbox without paying the price of false rejects. Yahoo can't do that for me. They just throw everything that doesn't pass their reputation check into an overloaded [bulk] folder. Bulk mail is not the same as spam. They need a separate "Quarantine" folder with fewer messages, and the messages in the Quarantine should be sorted so the "ham" is near the top.

I use yahoo.com for outgoing because they are large, and their transmitters are clean, so they will keep their good reputation.

jasonshapiro · 28 Nov 2007, 09:25 PM

So what you suggest I do, not having my own server, for incoming mail. As far as I see it, I can forward everything to Yahoo or have Yahoo read it through POP, which I can't seem to get to work. Are there any other options? I would like to keep my custom email address but maybe I should just forget that and use my Yahoo address.

Thanks a lot.

jasonshapiro · 31 Dec 2007, 06:12 AM

One more question regarding this. Does SMTP vs. webmail have any effect on delivery reliability?

Thanks.

William9 · 31 Dec 2007, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jasonshapiro

So what you suggest I do, not having my own server, for incoming mail. As far as I see it, I can forward everything to Yahoo or have Yahoo read it through POP, which I can't seem to get to work. Are there any other options? I would like to keep my custom email address but maybe I should just forget that and use my Yahoo address.

Thanks a lot.

This is the niche for e-mail specialists like Fastmail, Tuffmail, Everyone.net, etc. A low-cost, reliable nearly all of the time, feature-rich, e-mail service for those of use who have our own domains. In my personal experience, there have been some issues in the past with blacklisting of some of these providers -- but it has only been temporary and limited to one or two recipients. These commercial providers are very concerned about having their servers blacklisted. Some of the higher priced providers such as LuxSci describe agonizing precautions to avoid black listing of any of their sending servers.
For business and professional communications, it's awkward to explain to an intended recipient that the message you sent was not delivered to their inbox because the email service that you use is blacklisted.

25 Nov 2007, 01:06 AM	#1
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	delivery reliability I have a custom email address for my domain. I was using Google Apps but when I switched hosting providers I was not able to get Google Apps email to work. I am currently using IMAP or Horde through my hosting provider for email. When I first started using this mail they had some issues with the mail. Some messages were never delivered and customer support for my host is telling me that they recently switched servers and when they did that some domains, such as MSN, marked their message as spam and never delivered them. I use this email account a lot for work and don't want to worry about having undelivered messages or not receiving messages. Is this fairly normal or would I have better reliability with an email provider such as FastMail, GMail or Yahoo? Or any others I am possibly unaware of. Any input would be appreciated. Thanks, Jason

25 Nov 2007, 02:19 AM	#2
ReuvenNY Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 4,272	I don't know about Yahoo, but with Fastmail and Gmail you would definitely have a much better reliability. ISP's are notorious in providing terrible email service. Website host are a bit better, but nowhere near companies that specialize in email service.

25 Nov 2007, 12:03 PM	#4
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	Thanks for the input. I was checking out live.com email but can't stand the tag lines it puts on the messages. It seems so unprofessional. I also tried GMail when I switched and just can't get it configured. Even when my hosting provider makes the MX changes it just doesn't seem to take.

25 Nov 2007, 05:36 PM	#6
David MacQuigg Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 66 Representative of: Open-Mail.org	After trying to send mail from my own little transmitter, and running into similar problems with lost mail, I found there are only two solutions. Either make a serious effort to become a reputable sender, or let someone else handle your outgoing mail. I use controlledmail.com and yahoo.com. Controlledmail is nice if you ever have a technical problem. Yahoo has tremendous clout, so no competent receiver will lose mail from their transmitters. Yahoo also lets you use any return address you want, and I have many.

25 Nov 2007, 08:42 PM	#7
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	I tried the MX records in the past and it never worked. I tried the Google Apps again and it worked. Go figure. Yahoo does seem to be the most reliable. I will experiment with the alias stuff and see if that works out but Yahoo is very slow on my laptop. Thanks.

26 Nov 2007, 12:03 AM	#8
David MacQuigg Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 66 Representative of: Open-Mail.org	I have no data that Yahoo is more reliable for outgoing mail, just a guess based on my understanding of how receivers implement reputation checking. Mail from smaller services tends to get lost or marked as possible spam, regardless of its content. Reliability will be hard to measure, since we are talking about rare events that are hard to distinguish from normal inattention on the part of a recipient. Did they really not get your email, or are they just making an excuse so they can ignore you. The one definite indication I had of a problem using my own transmitter, was that whenenver I sent email to my own Yahoo account, it got tagged as [bulk], regardless of content, and could easily be lost in the bulk of spam that normally gets that tag. I've had no problem with the speed of sending mail via Yahoo's transmitter. I'm using a 256Kbit DSL line, and I have my email program (Eudora) set to use Yahoo's SMTP server. They require a login, but that happens only once a day. I do poll their POP server every ten minutes, so perhaps that is keeping the connection alive. My guess as to what we would see if we could measure delivery reliability vs sender size, is that there is a plateau for senders above a certain size. Once you are in the top 100, you will be in almost every receiver's reputation database. Reliability would then diminish as you get smaller. This "unfairness" to small senders is what makes the big guys favor the status quo. It is also something we hope to remedy with our Registry of Internet Transmitters.

26 Nov 2007, 11:53 PM	#10
David MacQuigg Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 66 Representative of: Open-Mail.org	I would not use Gmail for my outgoing mail. google.com is one of the few large ESPs that allows spam to be sent from their authorized transmitters. I have sent them spam reports, and get nothing but automated denials - we don't send spam, someone is forging our name! I replied that it was not a forgery, we used their chosen authentication method (PTR), and it did come from one of their transmitters. Instead of just looking at the IP address to see for themselves, they continued to sandbag and deny. I took google.com off our whitelist, restored them a few months later, and found the problem had not been fixed. I took them off again. Now I will wait until someone tells me that the problem is fixed. I would like to have them as one of our reputable senders, but I cannot allow them to pollute our client's inboxes. The problem is specifically with their webmail transmitters. If you are submitting mail via SMTP, it may not be a problem. Look at the heloname. If it ends in google.com, you are lumped in with those problematic transmitters. Google could easily solve the problem by using a different heloname for new webmail accounts. If anyone from Google is listening, let's talk. I have tried to contact them and all I get is robots.

27 Nov 2007, 01:19 AM	#11
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	If I decide to use YahooMail does it matter if I have my hosting provider forward all messages to my Yahoo address or should I set up Yahoo to read the mail from my server via POP? Thanks.

27 Nov 2007, 11:54 PM	#12
David MacQuigg Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Tucson AZ Posts: 66 Representative of: Open-Mail.org	I thought we were talking only about outgoing mail. I don't use Yahoo for incoming, because I have a much better system on my own server. I like having a spam-free inbox without paying the price of false rejects. Yahoo can't do that for me. They just throw everything that doesn't pass their reputation check into an overloaded [bulk] folder. Bulk mail is not the same as spam. They need a separate "Quarantine" folder with fewer messages, and the messages in the Quarantine should be sorted so the "ham" is near the top. I use yahoo.com for outgoing because they are large, and their transmitters are clean, so they will keep their good reputation.

28 Nov 2007, 09:25 PM	#13
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	So what you suggest I do, not having my own server, for incoming mail. As far as I see it, I can forward everything to Yahoo or have Yahoo read it through POP, which I can't seem to get to work. Are there any other options? I would like to keep my custom email address but maybe I should just forget that and use my Yahoo address. Thanks a lot.

31 Dec 2007, 06:12 AM	#14
jasonshapiro Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 110	One more question regarding this. Does SMTP vs. webmail have any effect on delivery reliability? Thanks.