Alternate namespace IMAP port (may help Outlook,OL Express,Apple Mail and BIS users)

robmueller · 3 Jul 2008, 03:34 PM

Background summary: Since we started FastMail, we've been using cyrus (http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/) as our IMAP server. By default, cyrus uses 2 different namespaces for folders: "INBOX" for personal folders, and "user" for shared folders. What this means is that all personal folders are actually a sub-folder of INBOX.

Since cyrus is a well used email server, and most people prefer personal folders being at the same level, most email software includes a "root prefix" option or the like, and setting that to "INBOX" will promote all the sub-folders of INBOX up one level, and display INBOX as Inbox.

The problem is that not all programs handle this as well as they should, some programs not at all, and for some when you do set the root prefix, it "hides" the "user" namespace, so you then can't use shared folders at all.

Alt namespace: Now cyrus does have a mode where you can enable what's called the "altnamespace" feature. What this does is basically cause cyrus to internally remap folder names (eg promote sub-folders of INBOX up one level), rather than getting the client to do it. For folders that normally live in the "user" namespace, it puts them instead in a separate namespace called "Other Users".

The problem is this is a server wide setting, and we can't just change it for everyone in one go, because every existing person that had an IMAP client setup would suddenly start getting errors. (eg their email client would try to select the folder INBOX.Drafts say, and the server would say that that folder doesn't exist anymore because it's now called just Drafts). Every existing users would have to remove the root prefix from their client, and then re-download a lot of email in many cases. This would cause massive disruption.

Solution: Well it turns out that while it's a server wide setting, it's actually per "service instance". What this means is that we can actually run two completely separate imap service instances at the same time, and one has regular namespace, and one has the "altnamespace" setting set. To make this accessible, we basically have to put it on a separate server/port.

So what I've done now is set this up, and map it to separate port numbers. So if you setup your email client with:

Username: yourusername@domain.tld
Password: yourpassword
Server: mail.messagingengine.com
Root prefix: (leave blank)
Port: 142 (or for SSL 992)

You'll get the alternate namespace IMAP instance.

Who is this for?: This is most useful for the following people:

* Outlook/Outlook Express users with folders shared from another person - If you set the root prefix in Outlook/Outlook express, it will hide the shared folder "user" namespace. With the alternate namespace ports, shared folders will appear under the "Other Users" folder
* Apple Mail users with folders shared from another person - ditto to above, and additionally, leaving the "root prefix" blank which used to be a solution now causes Apple Mail to warn you every time you start it up. With the alternate namespace ports, and the "root prefix" left blank, this shouldn't happen
* Blackberry BIS users - it seems the Blackberry BIS server uses some fairly hardcoded folder paths (eg "Sent Items" and "Trash") and won't search for sub-folders of INBOX, so this should work better. To set this up, you need to login to the BIS website, create the FM account and leave your password blank. It should then take you to a more advanced configuration screen where you can set the port to use explicitly.

Thunderbird users don't need to use this, because Thunderbird seems to be a bit smarter with an INBOX root prefix. It promotes the sub-folders correctly, but still shows the "user" namespace for shared folders as well.

Limitations: One thing the cyrus altnamespace instance doesn't handle properly is creating sub-folders of Inbox. I'm not entirely sure what will actually happen, but I'd recommend you don't do it.

I think that's about it for now. I haven't fully tested all of this, so there might be some edge issues, but it should be mostly ok.

Rob

purzel · 3 Jul 2008, 04:01 PM

epoc mail on symbian has this problem but mobiles often don't allow entering custom ports. i guess it's not possible to map this to the standard ports without screwing up thousands of peoples inboxes? i'm already used to have my folders displayed as subfolders of the inbox so it doesn't matter that much.

placebo · 3 Jul 2008, 07:39 PM

Accessing shared folders with 10.5's Mail application still doesn't work. An Other Users folder appears, but folders corresponding to the user name and actual folder don't show up.

Edit: I spoke too soon. The folder shows up now. I appears I have to subscribe to the folder (via Thunderbird) to get it to show up.

mrd19 · 8 Mar 2009, 01:35 AM

Sorry folks for replying to a dormant thread, but I think this might be the most appropriate thread to post this question. I just set up a new BlackBerry Curve (BIS). Added my Fastmail account and I can see mail (and new mail notifications) that come to my Inbox. I do not see any incoming mail or notifications for messages delivered to a folder (aka "user folder"). I tried changing my mail server in the BIS mail settings for the FM account to use the alt namespaces IMAP/SSL proxy (imapalts.proxy.messagingengine.com) in hopes that the alt namespaces IMAP folder format helps BIS "see" the folders and mail that is delivered there. However, no dice. Is there something special I need to do to see these user folders? When I use the menu option View Folders, I can only see folders for my primary (Desktop) mail account, which is not Fastmail (Outlook Enterprise).

One of my main questions was to Rob re his post:

Quote:

Blackberry BIS users - it seems the Blackberry BIS server uses some fairly hardcoded folder paths (eg "Sent Items" and "Trash") and won't search for sub-folders of INBOX, so this should work better.

What exactly do you mean by "so this should work better"? What should work better? Should I see mail in my folders? See the folders themselves? See new mail notifications to them? These would be my hopes, but I have a feeling it's not going to happen. I also assume Rob doesn't use a BlackBerry since BIS IMAP support is rather limited and probably not an ideal mobile platform for an IMAP enthusiast.

beq · 8 Mar 2009, 01:47 AM

I've used FastMail's alternate namespace IMAP port for quite awhile, under the assumption that it's just as fast as the service under the normal port since both instances run on the same server. Can this be confirmed though?

P.S. Tuffmail allows the namespace setting to be toggled per each individual mailbox. I'm guessing their system directs each mailbox access to the appropriate server instance based on this setting?

capkapak · 13 Mar 2009, 06:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrd19

Sorry folks for replying to a dormant thread, but I think this might be the most appropriate thread to post this question. I just set up a new BlackBerry Curve (BIS). Added my Fastmail account and I can see mail (and new mail notifications) that come to my Inbox. I do not see any incoming mail or notifications for messages delivered to a folder (aka "user folder"). I tried changing my mail server in the BIS mail settings for the FM account to use the alt namespaces IMAP/SSL proxy (imapalts.proxy.messagingengine.com) in hopes that the alt namespaces IMAP folder format helps BIS "see" the folders and mail that is delivered there. However, no dice. Is there something special I need to do to see these user folders? When I use the menu option View Folders, I can only see folders for my primary (Desktop) mail account, which is not Fastmail (Outlook Enterprise).

One of my main questions was to Rob re his post:

What exactly do you mean by "so this should work better"? What should work better? Should I see mail in my folders? See the folders themselves? See new mail notifications to them? These would be my hopes, but I have a feeling it's not going to happen. I also assume Rob doesn't use a BlackBerry since BIS IMAP support is rather limited and probably not an ideal mobile platform for an IMAP enthusiast.

Same here, no dice. Using "imapalts.proxy.messagingengine.com" as I can't change the port number manually on my BIS setup page.

Still can't access other folders apart from Inbox. Under Folder list don't see any other sub-folders.

3 Jul 2008, 03:34 PM	#1
robmueller Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Melbourne, Australia Posts: 6,102 Representative of: Fastmail.FM	Alternate namespace IMAP port (may help Outlook,OL Express,Apple Mail and BIS users) Background summary: Since we started FastMail, we've been using cyrus (http://cyrusimap.web.cmu.edu/) as our IMAP server. By default, cyrus uses 2 different namespaces for folders: "INBOX" for personal folders, and "user" for shared folders. What this means is that all personal folders are actually a sub-folder of INBOX. Since cyrus is a well used email server, and most people prefer personal folders being at the same level, most email software includes a "root prefix" option or the like, and setting that to "INBOX" will promote all the sub-folders of INBOX up one level, and display INBOX as Inbox. The problem is that not all programs handle this as well as they should, some programs not at all, and for some when you do set the root prefix, it "hides" the "user" namespace, so you then can't use shared folders at all. Alt namespace: Now cyrus does have a mode where you can enable what's called the "altnamespace" feature. What this does is basically cause cyrus to internally remap folder names (eg promote sub-folders of INBOX up one level), rather than getting the client to do it. For folders that normally live in the "user" namespace, it puts them instead in a separate namespace called "Other Users". The problem is this is a server wide setting, and we can't just change it for everyone in one go, because every existing person that had an IMAP client setup would suddenly start getting errors. (eg their email client would try to select the folder INBOX.Drafts say, and the server would say that that folder doesn't exist anymore because it's now called just Drafts). Every existing users would have to remove the root prefix from their client, and then re-download a lot of email in many cases. This would cause massive disruption. Solution: Well it turns out that while it's a server wide setting, it's actually per "service instance". What this means is that we can actually run two completely separate imap service instances at the same time, and one has regular namespace, and one has the "altnamespace" setting set. To make this accessible, we basically have to put it on a separate server/port. So what I've done now is set this up, and map it to separate port numbers. So if you setup your email client with: Username: yourusername@domain.tld Password: yourpassword Server: mail.messagingengine.com Root prefix: (leave blank) Port: 142 (or for SSL 992) You'll get the alternate namespace IMAP instance. Who is this for?: This is most useful for the following people: * Outlook/Outlook Express users with folders shared from another person - If you set the root prefix in Outlook/Outlook express, it will hide the shared folder "user" namespace. With the alternate namespace ports, shared folders will appear under the "Other Users" folder * Apple Mail users with folders shared from another person - ditto to above, and additionally, leaving the "root prefix" blank which used to be a solution now causes Apple Mail to warn you every time you start it up. With the alternate namespace ports, and the "root prefix" left blank, this shouldn't happen * Blackberry BIS users - it seems the Blackberry BIS server uses some fairly hardcoded folder paths (eg "Sent Items" and "Trash") and won't search for sub-folders of INBOX, so this should work better. To set this up, you need to login to the BIS website, create the FM account and leave your password blank. It should then take you to a more advanced configuration screen where you can set the port to use explicitly. Thunderbird users don't need to use this, because Thunderbird seems to be a bit smarter with an INBOX root prefix. It promotes the sub-folders correctly, but still shows the "user" namespace for shared folders as well. Limitations: One thing the cyrus altnamespace instance doesn't handle properly is creating sub-folders of Inbox. I'm not entirely sure what will actually happen, but I'd recommend you don't do it. I think that's about it for now. I haven't fully tested all of this, so there might be some edge issues, but it should be mostly ok. Rob

3 Jul 2008, 07:39 PM	#3
placebo Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 743	Accessing shared folders with 10.5's Mail application still doesn't work. An Other Users folder appears, but folders corresponding to the user name and actual folder don't show up. Edit: I spoke too soon. The folder shows up now. I appears I have to subscribe to the folder (via Thunderbird) to get it to show up. Last edited by placebo : 3 Jul 2008 at 07:50 PM.

3 Jul 2008, 04:01 PM	#2
purzel Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 127	epoc mail on symbian has this problem but mobiles often don't allow entering custom ports. i guess it's not possible to map this to the standard ports without screwing up thousands of peoples inboxes? i'm already used to have my folders displayed as subfolders of the inbox so it doesn't matter that much.

8 Mar 2009, 01:47 AM	#5
beq Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: USA Posts: 895	I've used FastMail's alternate namespace IMAP port for quite awhile, under the assumption that it's just as fast as the service under the normal port since both instances run on the same server. Can this be confirmed though? P.S. Tuffmail allows the namespace setting to be toggled per each individual mailbox. I'm guessing their system directs each mailbox access to the appropriate server instance based on this setting?