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Old 4 Mar 2015, 02:50 PM   #1
Gryllida
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Let's liberate the webmail JavaScript

Fastmail used to be listed at [1] but its webmail is non-free anymore (I expect it to be removed, if not already). Do we want to suggest Fastmail people to follow the process at [2] to release their JavaScipt? This way users of the librejs browser extension [3] would be able to log in and read their mail in the web browser. Such users would also be able to read, study, modify, and re-distribute the programs running on their computer -- JavaScript being one of such programs. Currently users of the LibreJS extension only see a blank screen upon logging in...

Please join me in a move to regain control over our computing that happens while using webmail.

1 https://www.fsf.org/resources/webmail-systems
2 http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs/...avascript.html
3 http://www.gnu.org/software/librejs
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Old 4 Mar 2015, 05:12 PM   #2
adamlau
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http://overturejs.com/
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Old 5 Mar 2015, 01:29 AM   #3
somdcomputerguy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Free Software Webmail Systems
Some of these services are gratis, but that's a separate issue. Recall that "free software" refers to freedom, not price.

Fastmail: Sign up, sign in, and webmail all work smoothly. This is a paid service with a 60-day free trial.

https://www.fsf.org/resources/webmail-systems
Quote:
Originally Posted by FastMail: Fast, reliable email
Start your free trial now
extra text - bruce
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Old 5 Mar 2015, 06:13 AM   #4
Gryllida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by somdcomputerguy View Post
extra text - bruce
I don't understand your comment. Whether Fastmail is gratis (i.e. free of charge) or not is irrelevant to this discussion.

This is released, but it is not the whole thing. Some JavaScript (including the one at login) is detected as non-free.
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Old 5 Mar 2015, 08:05 AM   #5
BritTim
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Wrt http://overturejs.com/
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryllida View Post
This is released, but it is not the whole thing. Some JavaScript (including the one at login) is detected as non-free.
Fastmail has been rather good about open sourcing code that is of a general nature. Besides the JS library, they have contributed heavily to Cyrus, made contributions to CPAN, and are promoting a new JMAP standard with reference code.

Like most complex services, Fastmail has a lot of code that is only usable in the context of their own setup. To release such code would simply be pointless, unless it included every line of their server code, database code, and the detailed documentation that would allow it all to be understandable.
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Old 5 Mar 2015, 01:03 PM   #6
Gryllida
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Quote:
Like most complex services, Fastmail has a lot of code that is only usable in the context of their own setup. To release such code would simply be pointless, unless it included every line of their server code, database code, and the detailed documentation that would allow it all to be understandable.
This starts infringing users' software freedoms as soon as users are subject to non-free JavaScript programs in their browser. Resolving this does not require releasing the whole frontend code -- only the JavaScript.
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Old 5 Mar 2015, 11:13 PM   #7
ChinaLamb
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryllida View Post
This starts infringing users' software freedoms as soon as users are subject to non-free JavaScript programs in their browser. Resolving this does not require releasing the whole frontend code -- only the JavaScript.
And what were you going to do with Fastmail's javascript? Use it to run your own webmail server?
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Old 6 Mar 2015, 09:07 AM   #8
Gryllida
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Originally Posted by ChinaLamb View Post
And what were you going to do with Fastmail's javascript? Use it to run your own webmail server?
Ability to reuse the JavaScript to run my own webmail server is only tangentially related to this issue; if it were not for infrigement of users' freedoms, it would be ethical to keep your JavaScript under any license you choose. You can write proprietary code and run it server-side; it is not ethical, but the burden is on you. I would suggest you nicely to stop doing that, but I would leave it as your problem, as long as users use free software to communicate with your server.

However, this JavaScript is users' own computing, performed client-side on their own computers; users should be able to modify it as they please, and distribute modified versions, like they can do with any other free program they run on their computers. (It is not a common feature of web browsers to let users run a modified version of JavaScript before the original version from the website starts to run, -- but, partly with the help of Greasemonkey, it is possible.) To make such activity legal, it is necessary to release the JavaScript under a free license.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html is another essay on the topic; I should have linked it in my original message to avoid confusion. (Some of this thread looks rather much like a wreck, which I blame on my inability to communicate clearly, -- hopefully it will balance off after I answer some of the questions raised.)
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Old 6 Mar 2015, 02:33 PM   #9
BritTim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gryllida View Post
Ability to reuse the JavaScript to run my own webmail server is only tangentially related to this issue; if it were not for infrigement of users' freedoms, it would be ethical to keep your JavaScript under any license you choose. You can write proprietary code and run it server-side; it is not ethical, but the burden is on you. I would suggest you nicely to stop doing that, but I would leave it as your problem, as long as users use free software to communicate with your server.

However, this JavaScript is users' own computing, performed client-side on their own computers; users should be able to modify it as they please, and distribute modified versions, like they can do with any other free program they run on their computers. (It is not a common feature of web browsers to let users run a modified version of JavaScript before the original version from the website starts to run, -- but, partly with the help of Greasemonkey, it is possible.) To make such activity legal, it is necessary to release the JavaScript under a free license.

https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html is another essay on the topic; I should have linked it in my original message to avoid confusion. (Some of this thread looks rather much like a wreck, which I blame on my inability to communicate clearly, -- hopefully it will balance off after I answer some of the questions raised.)
I am a big advocate of open source software. However, I have never been in sympathy with Richard Stallman's views.

We all have a shared interest in having applications built, as far as possible, using open standards with transparent implementations. Additionally using licenses that encourage these implementations to be cooperatively developed and shared, promotes lower cost and higher reliability.

Stallman takes these practical arguments, and extends them into the status of a religion. I am suspicious of dogma that seeks to increase the costs of service providers to provide benefits that amount to hand waving and buzz words. I do not feel that my "freedoms are being infringed" because FM has not gone to the expense of documenting and releasing all the JavaScript specific to their (quite complex) client/server interface. In fact, I am very relieved that no one is being encouraged to develop Greasemonkey scripts that attempt to modify the data passed back and forth between client and server. If someone has a specific itch they want to scratch that affects only the aesthetics of the login screen, this is not that difficult, and no one will stop him. If he wants to change the interface between the client and the server, someone may try to stop him, especially if he finds a bug in the validation checks and crashes part of FM's infrastructure.

If you are determined to run nothing on your computer that has not been anointed by RMS, the old FM classic interface can run successfully without JavaScript enabled.
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Old 6 Mar 2015, 03:26 PM   #10
robn
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Representative of:
Fastmail.fm
tl;dr we're not going to release the frontend source code at this time.

We're big believers in open data and open standards, which is why we invest so much in our IMAP, CalDAV, CardDAV, etc support and try to get new things like JMAP out there.

With open source though, we're far more pragmatic - we don't have any philosophical position on it. We really only release the source code for something if its personally interesting (eg a standalone component like hopscotch), or if it meets some business objective (all our involvement with Cyrus).

I'll use the Android/iOS app as an example. Some people have asked for it to be open-sourced. My response was that I'd only do it if someone genuinely wanted to build something with it. The code itself isn't interesting or useful for its own sake, but might be interesting if you wanted to add a major feature or port it to another platform. Releasing the code isn't just a code drop - I need to sanitise it a little bit, provide some build instructions and so on. That takes time away from other more important projects. So its only worth doing if its likely to result in a net improvement for both us and our customers.

It isn't clear that the time and effort required to make the frontend source code available (and LibreJS compatible) is going to result in any significant gain. Maybe we'd get a couple of extra users out of it, but I doubt it would be enough to justify the time and effort spent to get the code out there and support it properly.

I'd make the argument that if you already trust us to store and manage your email then trusting that the code we ship is doing the right thing is not really a big deal. If you don't trust us, then you probably don't want us managing your email either.

If you're a Stallman devotee, then this explanation is unlikely to satisfy you. I'm not sure there's much I can do about that. The first link you posted does link to some other mail providers that do claim to run 100% free software. Perhaps one of those would be a better choice for you over FastMail.
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