New "Online Shopping Links" forum... feedback? - Page 2

Dave P in StLouis · 30 Sep 2002, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by fb19
I don't like it because:

1) I cannot reply or post comments, suggestions, feedback, or anything else in the forum. . . .

Also, in addition to not being able to reply to new threads, we can't start our own new threads either. . . .

Dear fb19,

Your post is one of the reasons I started an "Online Shopping" thread in the Off Topic Lounge (plus wanting to rant about SurplusComputers.com

). However, the thread has been up for about three days now IIRC and all the posts are still mine. AFAIK, neither of us has fooled around and gotten himself banned. Your last post was today in the FastMail.fm forum so I know you've had an opportunity to see the thread and post to it if you really wanted to do so. This isn't meant as an attack but it doesn't give you much credibility if you won't take the opportunity when someone hands it to you. I guess it's just what I deserve for thinking I could make the horse drink just because I led him to the water.

Best wishes anyway,
David P.

***Edwin*** · 30 Sep 2002, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Howard
Edwin, the Amazon.com link takes me to a 'page not found' page...

Jeremy, do you happen to know which link that was? I tried all the Amazon links I could see and they all took me to the correct pages. Thanks!

BTW, for reference, I have not made any commissions yet from the new shopping links. But in any case, it's a long-term thing...

FromLine · 30 Sep 2002, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Howard
Please don't pretend that you can speak on behalf of "many users". You don't--you speak only for yourself.

Jeremey, if I stated myself and others, it's based on two things. Both the emails in which I regularly correspond with as we have our own group where we correspond almost daily, and I live in San Francisco and know some of the posters on this forum in person. Today, in fact, I ran into a frequent poster on this forum at the Folsom Street Fair who I talked to.

The concerns I posted above, which was more geared toward the forum as a whole, are discussed from time to time and while we don't agree on everything, there are times of consensus on some matters and the reason I mentioned it in that way is because many of them have stated to me that even when they agree or are disturbed by various aspects, they are afraid to post honest feedback and/or critical thoughts in fear of what may result. I obviously can't mention the names as they trust me with the information they provide to me, but just to respond and let you know, it's not based on my assumption of what others think, it's based upon what's emailed, instant messaged, and even talked about face-to-face in person.

I can honestly say that I have actually made about a half-dozen connections on this forum which has resulted in business/networking and social connetions within my city and regular correspondances on this and other various topics in other locations.

esTester · 30 Sep 2002, 01:20 PM

I am going to have to agree with most of fb19's arguement here. I have not been to this forum in a long time, but I visit from time to time without posting. This thread was the reason for my visit today and I feel a need to comment on it.

I understand that this is an idea for Edwin to make money, but I think this is not the best way to do it. If you are going to post ads that you are paid to post, at least let users review them and post about them or even give a non bias review yourself. If you can do that at least users will be warned.

Remember, Boxfrog? You ran tons of ads for them here. When they were reported as spammers, you stopped running that ads. That shows you care or cared then about what you advertise. I don't know about some of these servcies posted, but the truth should be known, good or bad. Users commenting or posting reviews is a great way to accomplish this.

It is pretty oubvious that this forum is far from a democracy at this point. I know some forums that are and they are great, though I will not mention any names here. It is clear this forum is not one and that idea is accepted, but at least let users talk about some of these services. Let the community have a say. If there is a new EMD user that sees the ads, they might just assume that these are good proven servcies and sign up for one. That wouldn't be good. If the service is bad, they could come black and blame EMD for referring them. That probably wouldn't happen, but you get what I am saying. Why have EMD's name associated with a bad service and the only way to find out about the services is to have users comment. At least that is the only way to get a general result. If you do an experiment once in science, you won't get the same result you will get if you do it over 20 times, most likely.

I am just posting my feedback on this idea, which you asked for.

***Edwin*** · 30 Sep 2002, 01:34 PM

Again, all I can say is that absolutely NOBODY need read the ads... because they're all tidily hidden away in a separate forum, you don't even have to visit that forum if you don't like it. As I posted earlier, so far nobody has bought anything via one of the ads, so the danger of people being misled is pretty slim

I have been to many message board which have popups, popunders, banners, skyscrapers, buttons - you name it, they have it. The "commercial burden" of these Forums is, IMO, very light indeed by comparison.

Similarly, if you find the small number of essentially common-sense rules of this Forum, which were put in place primarily to facilitate productive, polite and business-like dialog, are too restrictive, there is absolutely no obligation for you to continue using this Forum.

**ReuvenNY** · 30 Sep 2002, 01:56 PM

Maybe I am missing something, but I can't understand the whole commotion here: Edwin who owns and provides these forum for our use, needs to make some money to cover his expenses. He is looking for ways that are least intrusive. He tried verious types of banners, didn't like them also because they make the forums look bad, so he resorted to this absolutly non intrusive completly voluntary system where he has an opportunity to make a few bucks. He needs our help! Let's stop arguing, give him a hand and use those links when we shop anyway.

Not everything mentioned here has to be an issue for a debate. Some are just "hand shaking hand" issues, so let's keep it this way!
I for one, intend to check those links every time I'm ready to shop..

Reuven

esTester · 30 Sep 2002, 01:58 PM

Edwin,

I stated above in my last post, "It is pretty oubvious that this forum is far from a democracy at this point."

That is understood and accepted like I said before. The thing is, Edwin, that you seem to be avoiding answering any of our arguements. You asked for feedback and we have you our opinions, which are valid points IMO. Then you go ahead and don't respond to them, but simply say, don't go to the forums.

With all due respect, I really don't think this is right. I have a feeling you know that we might be partially right, but might not accept it, so you are just avoiding the topic and pretty much copying and pasting an earlier attempt to avoid claims from fb19.

My post was not about pop-ups, banners, or the rules of this forum. They are not relevent in this discussion and are just being put to avoid the truth. In my opinion of course. I am really not sure what yours is because you will not state it or even acknowledge our remarks.

In a government of a country, the government has to serve and protect it's people. The same thing should happen here, but on a different level. A government will not ignore a big problem, they would comment on it and even possibly make a change. This is what should be done here. I am not trying to attack you on any type of level, but I want a reponse to my posts that doesn't try to change the topic.

Please consider what I have talked about and respond to my posts, instead of simply responding.

Please read this over and try to think about it with an open mind. I am not trying to attack you.

***Edwin*** · 30 Sep 2002, 02:08 PM

The "Online Shopping Links" forum is an advertising vehicle, pure and simple. The fact that it is a Forum is just because that's the easiest way to display the links. It is not meant to imply (and was NEVER meant to imply - please read the original announcement) that this is somewhere for people to talk about shopping online, because it isn't.

It's just an easier way of showcasing a few ads than popups, large banners and skyscrapers and other "intrusive" ads would be.

The focus of these Forums is, and will remain, on E-M-A-I-L. (except for the OT forum, of course).

I have stated this so many times now that I'm at a loss to find a new way to explain it.

***Edwin*** · 30 Sep 2002, 02:11 PM

To add a little more "perspective" to the discussion: the server on which these Forums run - which is the server powering all my sites - costs over US$7,000 a year to run.

To date, I believe my revenue from these Forums is somewhat less than $50 a month.

I am not going to go down the path of trying to "break down" how much of that can be attributed to the Forums themselves - that's not my purpose here - but simply put, I'm amazed at how churlish some of the posts have been recently in response to what I thought was a very simple and straightforward way that PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO (and EXCLUSIVELY people who wanted to) could help out a little bit, without changing their behaviour in any way!

FromLine · 30 Sep 2002, 03:04 PM

A lot of what's being addressed here really goes beyond the shopping thread and addresses the EMD forum as a whole (even though it's being disussed in this particular thread) exclusive of cost.

I beleive esTester explained very intelligently and dimplomaticly the global interactive dialogue concerns.

On a feedback matter, it just occured to me that using such advertisments in the same format as an open forum discussion thread may give the perception - especially to new users - that it's a part of the forum. One distiction on that matter is that there's a clear difference between advertisements/endorsements on a web page versus a perceived discussion thread between two open discussion threads.

The buttons "Post a Reply" and "New Thread" at the bottom and top may then seem confusing and bewilder some.

I've used quite a few vBullentin forums on various topics and I've not seen this method used for advertisments and maybe one thought to consider is that it does look quite similar to the discussion threads.

Also, it was put 2nd of three in Miscellaneous, not third (blending in with open discussion).

There's currently three heading categories:

1) Discussions About Email Services

2) Email Service Provider-specific Forums

3) Miscellaneous

perhaps you should consider:

4) Advertisements (not a open discussion forum).

Even with 4), the "Post a Reply" and "New Thread" button concerns apply. Therefore, maybe a section below the discussions with links would make it clearer they are advertisement links not subject to open discussion.

FromLine · 30 Sep 2002, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave P in StLouis
Your last post was today in the FastMail.fm forum so I know you've had an opportunity to see the thread and post to it if you really wanted to do so. This isn't meant as an attack but it doesn't give you much credibility if you won't take the opportunity when someone hands it to you. I guess it's just what I deserve for thinking I could make the horse drink just because I led him to the water.

Believe it or not David, I don't read or see every single post on EMD. It's very hard to read and follow every single post here and I mainly tab in by clicking on subscription links of threads I participate in when notified by personal email delivery.

Many other threads can be overlooked. Also, I probably miss over 99% or more of total posts in the fastmail forum as it's just far too busy to read or view them all.

P.S. Thanks again for the sfboxes

30 Sep 2002, 03:04 PM	#25
FromLine The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Jan 2002 Posts: 2,619	A lot of what's being addressed here really goes beyond the shopping thread and addresses the EMD forum as a whole (even though it's being disussed in this particular thread) exclusive of cost. I beleive esTester explained very intelligently and dimplomaticly the global interactive dialogue concerns. On a feedback matter, it just occured to me that using such advertisments in the same format as an open forum discussion thread may give the perception - especially to new users - that it's a part of the forum. One distiction on that matter is that there's a clear difference between advertisements/endorsements on a web page versus a perceived discussion thread between two open discussion threads. The buttons "Post a Reply" and "New Thread" at the bottom and top may then seem confusing and bewilder some. I've used quite a few vBullentin forums on various topics and I've not seen this method used for advertisments and maybe one thought to consider is that it does look quite similar to the discussion threads. Also, it was put 2nd of three in Miscellaneous, not third (blending in with open discussion). There's currently three heading categories: 1) Discussions About Email Services 2) Email Service Provider-specific Forums 3) Miscellaneous perhaps you should consider: 4) Advertisements (not a open discussion forum). Even with 4), the "Post a Reply" and "New Thread" button concerns apply. Therefore, maybe a section below the discussions with links would make it clearer they are advertisement links not subject to open discussion. Last edited by FromLine : 30 Sep 2002 at 03:07 PM.

30 Sep 2002, 01:20 PM	#19
esTester Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 968	I am going to have to agree with most of fb19's arguement here. I have not been to this forum in a long time, but I visit from time to time without posting. This thread was the reason for my visit today and I feel a need to comment on it. I understand that this is an idea for Edwin to make money, but I think this is not the best way to do it. If you are going to post ads that you are paid to post, at least let users review them and post about them or even give a non bias review yourself. If you can do that at least users will be warned. Remember, Boxfrog? You ran tons of ads for them here. When they were reported as spammers, you stopped running that ads. That shows you care or cared then about what you advertise. I don't know about some of these servcies posted, but the truth should be known, good or bad. Users commenting or posting reviews is a great way to accomplish this. It is pretty oubvious that this forum is far from a democracy at this point. I know some forums that are and they are great, though I will not mention any names here. It is clear this forum is not one and that idea is accepted, but at least let users talk about some of these services. Let the community have a say. If there is a new EMD user that sees the ads, they might just assume that these are good proven servcies and sign up for one. That wouldn't be good. If the service is bad, they could come black and blame EMD for referring them. That probably wouldn't happen, but you get what I am saying. Why have EMD's name associated with a bad service and the only way to find out about the services is to have users comment. At least that is the only way to get a general result. If you do an experiment once in science, you won't get the same result you will get if you do it over 20 times, most likely. I am just posting my feedback on this idea, which you asked for.

30 Sep 2002, 01:34 PM	#20
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	Again, all I can say is that absolutely NOBODY need read the ads... because they're all tidily hidden away in a separate forum, you don't even have to visit that forum if you don't like it. As I posted earlier, so far nobody has bought anything via one of the ads, so the danger of people being misled is pretty slim I have been to many message board which have popups, popunders, banners, skyscrapers, buttons - you name it, they have it. The "commercial burden" of these Forums is, IMO, very light indeed by comparison. Similarly, if you find the small number of essentially common-sense rules of this Forum, which were put in place primarily to facilitate productive, polite and business-like dialog, are too restrictive, there is absolutely no obligation for you to continue using this Forum.

30 Sep 2002, 01:56 PM	#21
ReuvenNY Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 4,259	Maybe I am missing something, but I can't understand the whole commotion here: Edwin who owns and provides these forum for our use, needs to make some money to cover his expenses. He is looking for ways that are least intrusive. He tried verious types of banners, didn't like them also because they make the forums look bad, so he resorted to this absolutly non intrusive completly voluntary system where he has an opportunity to make a few bucks. He needs our help! Let's stop arguing, give him a hand and use those links when we shop anyway. Not everything mentioned here has to be an issue for a debate. Some are just "hand shaking hand" issues, so let's keep it this way! I for one, intend to check those links every time I'm ready to shop.. Reuven

30 Sep 2002, 01:58 PM	#22
esTester Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 968	Edwin, I stated above in my last post, "It is pretty oubvious that this forum is far from a democracy at this point." That is understood and accepted like I said before. The thing is, Edwin, that you seem to be avoiding answering any of our arguements. You asked for feedback and we have you our opinions, which are valid points IMO. Then you go ahead and don't respond to them, but simply say, don't go to the forums. With all due respect, I really don't think this is right. I have a feeling you know that we might be partially right, but might not accept it, so you are just avoiding the topic and pretty much copying and pasting an earlier attempt to avoid claims from fb19. My post was not about pop-ups, banners, or the rules of this forum. They are not relevent in this discussion and are just being put to avoid the truth. In my opinion of course. I am really not sure what yours is because you will not state it or even acknowledge our remarks. In a government of a country, the government has to serve and protect it's people. The same thing should happen here, but on a different level. A government will not ignore a big problem, they would comment on it and even possibly make a change. This is what should be done here. I am not trying to attack you on any type of level, but I want a reponse to my posts that doesn't try to change the topic. Please consider what I have talked about and respond to my posts, instead of simply responding. Please read this over and try to think about it with an open mind. I am not trying to attack you.

30 Sep 2002, 02:08 PM	#23
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	The "Online Shopping Links" forum is an advertising vehicle, pure and simple. The fact that it is a Forum is just because that's the easiest way to display the links. It is not meant to imply (and was NEVER meant to imply - please read the original announcement) that this is somewhere for people to talk about shopping online, because it isn't. It's just an easier way of showcasing a few ads than popups, large banners and skyscrapers and other "intrusive" ads would be. The focus of these Forums is, and will remain, on E-M-A-I-L. (except for the OT forum, of course). I have stated this so many times now that I'm at a loss to find a new way to explain it.

30 Sep 2002, 02:11 PM	#24
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	To add a little more "perspective" to the discussion: the server on which these Forums run - which is the server powering all my sites - costs over US$7,000 a year to run. To date, I believe my revenue from these Forums is somewhat less than $50 a month. I am not going to go down the path of trying to "break down" how much of that can be attributed to the Forums themselves - that's not my purpose here - but simply put, I'm amazed at how churlish some of the posts have been recently in response to what I thought was a very simple and straightforward way that PEOPLE WHO WANTED TO (and EXCLUSIVELY people who wanted to) could help out a little bit, without changing their behaviour in any way!