What does SPAM button do?

[LrdVader]

Originally posted by mikev99
Hold the phone here. I do not want any automatic action of any kind that I cannot select. I have my own filtering and reporting scheme setup with reports sent to spamcop and do not need FM blindly deciding what to do with my mail. This one needs to be configurable.

Agreed! Remember, one of FM's big selling points is *control*. "Features" like this reduce control. Bad idea, IMO.

[Jeremy Howard]

Originally posted by LrdVader
Agreed! Remember, one of FM's big selling points is *control*. "Features" like this reduce control. Bad idea, IMO.

Yes as I said we might make this optional. It depends what we actually do with the information. At this stage all we're doing is logging the results to see how the feature is used. Automatic and manual reports are logged separately, so we can see what they look like.

[mikev99]

Originally posted by Jeremy Howard
Yes as I said we might make this optional. It depends what we actually do with the information. At this stage all we're doing is logging the results to see how the feature is used. Automatic and manual reports are logged separately, so we can see what they look like.

Uhm, so you have started logging whenever I click empty on my junk folder? I really do not want to be logged. What happens if I delete perm all mail in the junk folder. What exactly is being logged and when? What information is being logged? I do not remember receiving a notice that you would be logging my personal information?

[eee]

If you open a message in the Junk Mail folder, the action becomes 'report non-spam', and moves the message into the Inbox.

??? I just opened a message in my Junk Mail folder so I could forward it to abuse@offendingdomain.com . Why should this action trigger a 'report non-spam'? (Should I be doing something else? If I knew "report spam" were reporting the spam to the e-mail provider that the spam came from, I guess I wouldn't need to do this. However, so far I have just read that "report spam" is sending a report to a database....)

[bitequator]

Just found this thread, many interesting issues raised by people...

I'd been using custom subfolders under Junk Mail, I wonder how they're handled. But I've now also switched to "Junk E-mail" to match the name in Outlook as mentioned earlier -- and I also use "custom" spam settings, so I guess the whole issue's moot for me?


Anyways, sorry if I only have a superficial understanding of this whole thing. As I understand it, the "report spam/non-spam" button is used manually by the user for misclassification corrections. Aren't these corrections the only input needed for the bayes training? Why must emptying the Junk folder, and the hamscan, be used for further spam/ham bayes training? (BTW I suppose then the bayes would no longer be semi-trained from the SpamAssassin scoring?)

So what happens after someone reports spam and it gets moved into the Junk Mail folder, then later emptied? Does it get reported twice (first time when the user clicks the button, second time when the Junk folder is emptied)?

[severach]

You've the right idea and I've built a system based on the ideas you mention. When I get done with the revisions, I'll be sending them off to J&R. I think spam can be beat 100% and false positives can be 0%.

[hadaso]

I have all my spam saved in subfolders of "temp.spam" according to origin (i.e., email address receiving the spam, except for my hotmail account email that I manually file in Junk Mail after popping into a folder named "hotmail" (It includes Hotmail mesages that are not really spam)). In my subfolders of "temp.spam" I have also copies of spam complaints I made in the past filed with the spam, and some correspondence with the department in our ministry of justice responsible for enforcing the "privacy protection law" concerning particular spam messages. I guess I would have to rename "temp.spam" to "spam" so it is not scanned as either spam or ham... or make them all subfolders of "Junk Mail"?... or perhaps just trash my spam collection and get a life...

[mballas]

Originally posted by hadaso
.. or perhaps just trash my spam collection and get a life...

Now you're talking! Why celebrate spam with all those sub folders?

[mikev99]

Originally posted by hadaso
I have all my spam saved in subfolders of "temp.spam" according to origin (i.e., email address receiving the spam, except for my hotmail account email that I manually file in Junk Mail after popping into a folder named "hotmail" (It includes Hotmail mesages that are not really spam)). In my subfolders of "temp.spam" I have also copies of spam complaints I made in the past filed with the spam, and some correspondence with the department in our ministry of justice responsible for enforcing the "privacy protection law" concerning particular spam messages. I guess I would have to rename "temp.spam" to "spam" so it is not scanned as either spam or ham... or make them all subfolders of "Junk Mail"?... or perhaps just trash my spam collection and get a life...

I pretty much was following my own system as well. My way around the whole issue was to just delete the Junk Mail folder (after moving what I needed to save for later issues) and created my own Junk Mail folder with a different name. Adjusted my sieve and now everything is the same except I really do miss the empty button.

[Jeremy Howard]

Originally posted by eee
I just opened a message in my Junk Mail folder so I could forward it to abuse@offendingdomain.com . Why should this action trigger a 'report non-spam'?

It doesn't. It makes a button labelled 'report non-spam' available in the web interface, which you can press if you choose to.

[Jeremy Howard]

Originally posted by mikev99
Uhm, so you have started logging whenever I click empty on my junk folder? I really do not want to be logged. What happens if I delete perm all mail in the junk folder. What exactly is being logged and when? What information is being logged? I do not remember receiving a notice that you would be logging my personal information?

Everything that happens on FastMail.FM is logged. It is impossible to run an email service without keeping a complete audit trail of everything that happens. I'm not sure what you mean by 'logging my personal information' - you store your emails, which is personal information, on our servers, so we can't avoid logging your personal information...

When you empty your junk mail folder, a list of the message ids is logged.

[severach]

Mark his account for no backup then rap on the hard disk with a screwdriver.

http://www.templetons.com/brad/gmail.html

[mikev99]

Originally posted by Jeremy Howard
Everything that happens on FastMail.FM is logged. It is impossible to run an email service without keeping a complete audit trail of everything that happens. I'm not sure what you mean by 'logging my personal information' - you store your emails, which is personal information, on our servers, so we can't avoid logging your personal information...

When you empty your junk mail folder, a list of the message ids is logged.

Yes, logging activities is needed. Yes, I understand the email is on your server and can be examined by sysops, although one assumes one can trust the sysops not to do so without a very good reason. However, what you said earlier, implies much more than just a simple and normal logging operation. To wit,

You said,

As for reporting ham, we have a scheduled job called 'hamscan' - here's a description Cory just wrote for me:
quote:
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hamscan is a scheduled task that runs automatically on the server. This function first performs a query to select all the users on the current server who have logged in successfully since they were last hamscanned and who have reported spam within the last week. For each user that it found, it performs a listing to find all of their folders. For each folder it finds (skipping the Junk Mail and Trash folders), it searches for all the messages created between the user's last hamscan and their last successful login and reports these messages. After finishing all of this user's folders, it updates their HamScannedTo date (ie, when they were last hamscanned).
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This implies that the scanner is going through my folders??

Maybe a new thread announcing exactly what is taking place might be useful. It seems strange that new buttons show up and new procedures are implemented without any notification, explanation, or description. Indeed I am confused about what is going on, but what I have read in several threads has not done much to clear up that confusion.

Report spam to whom? Report non-spam to whom? What does my (ex) Junk Filter had to do with reporting anything? I deleted my Junk Filter so that nothing I did would trigger any automatic reporting or scanning and reporting. Why am I being forced to report? Why is a scanner reporting all the messages in all my folders since the last run date? Exactly what is being reported? Why don't I have a means to opt out?

You guys normally do a much better job at communicating. Maybe this ought to move over to a beta server??

Clear it up for me, please.

[Jeremy Howard]

Nothing is logged. All that happens is a '0' is changed to a '1' in one field in one table. This is the meaning of 'report' in the post you quoted.

That's it. There's nothing else to tell you about, since nothing else is happening. As I said in the earlier post, no new information is collected, transferred, or stored, other than that one flag.

Apparently my use of the words 'scan' and 'report' have been associated with all kinds of questionable activities. These words simply refer to a database update which changes a '0' to a '1', nothing more. All we are doing with those '1's is adding them up, to see how many there are.

At some point hopefully we'll come up with some good ideas about using this information to help you block spam, at which point we'll clear out the tables (setting all the '1's back to '0's again), document what happens, and provide appropriate preferences to let you choose what to use in what way.

[mikev99]

OK, so reporting means counting ...

Given that, what are the counting rules?

If unread mail is in the Junk Mail folder then mark the message id with a spam mark?

If mail is in folders other than Trash or Junk Mail, then mark the message id with a non-spam mark?

If mail in the Junk Mail folder is opened then ???

If opened or not mail is in the Junk Mail folder and the non-spam button is clicked, then move it to the input folder and mark its message id as non-spam?

If opened or not mail is in a folder other than Junk mail and the spam button is pushed, move it to the Junk Mail folder and mark the message id as spam?

How do the buttons and hamscan function together?

Feels like the wagon is way ahead of the mule....