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Old 10 Oct 2018, 05:55 PM   #556
randian
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mx.mxroute.xyz seems to be down. Has MXroute canceled this service?
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Old 23 Oct 2018, 05:55 AM   #557
hans2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenFour View Post
Personally, I would not recommend MXroute to anyone based on my own brief use of their service that ended when the company cancelled my account after a couple of customer service issues. The owner hurled personal insults along with the issue, and blamed me the customer for not understanding how email works. The issue had to do with forwarding emails, which does work reliably with other services and has for years despite MXroute's statements to the contrary. In any case, their entire attitude towards customers appears to be that they are a huge bother and should just send money and take whatever level of service they receive. That is not a successful business model.
In a previous thread, Mail forwarding: good or bad? (spawned from this thread around May/June 2017), the MXroute guy showed a completely rude and intransigent attitude toward any constructive discussion about forwarding. So the above is not surprising.
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Old 23 Feb 2019, 02:06 PM   #558
FredOnline
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Learning as we go

https://blog.mxroute.com/2019/02/learning-as-we-go
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Old 5 Oct 2019, 02:07 AM   #559
FredOnline
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Email Forwarding Is Bad: Why you should never forward email

@MXroute on Twitter:

Quote:
Why email forwarding is a bad idea
https://www.tidbitsfortechs.com/2018...forward-email/
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Old 5 Oct 2019, 04:35 AM   #560
TenFour
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As I stated long ago in this thread I continue to forward emails and have no problems. Most of the forwarding is between Outlook.com and Gmail, so there is little chance either will be blocked. Both services do a good job of spam protection, with Outlook being a little bit too overzealous. But, I don't lose emails and it works much faster than POP or IMAP, and is more reliable in my experience. I also have my domain registrar do email forwards to Gmail for addresses and have had no problems. Where I think you could run into trouble is if you forward from a smaller email service with poor quality spam filtering to a Gmail or Outlook, which could get you blocked if they detect you are forwarding spam.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 02:24 PM   #561
jarland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TenFour View Post
As I stated long ago in this thread I continue to forward emails and have no problems. Most of the forwarding is between Outlook.com and Gmail, so there is little chance either will be blocked. Both services do a good job of spam protection, with Outlook being a little bit too overzealous. But, I don't lose emails and it works much faster than POP or IMAP, and is more reliable in my experience. I also have my domain registrar do email forwards to Gmail for addresses and have had no problems. Where I think you could run into trouble is if you forward from a smaller email service with poor quality spam filtering to a Gmail or Outlook, which could get you blocked if they detect you are forwarding spam.
It isn't about what service you're using or not using, it's about limited individual experience vs the greater picture. I've seen Google block Microsoft IPs and vice versa, but that's because I see more email traffic than you do. Just because one person does something and it "works out fine" for them every time they're aware of, that doesn't mean that what they're doing is universally safe, productive, or positive.

Google literally rejects email forwarded using SRS from certain domains, and this is indisputable with the facts openly shared here: https://blog.mxroute.com/2019/06/goo...mail-to-google

That you are not experiencing it just means you don't hit the relevant variables that trigger the problems, but as someone who oversees tens of thousands of users I can assure you, it isn't about being some lowly provider with poor filters or being of poor size. Google does not want your forwarded email, and I've proven it in that blog post with logs. My guess is you don't get any emails that trigger this, and that's fine, but other people do and the message is important because they might not realize it until they've missed an important email.

Most providers won't bother talking about something that happens to a tiny minority of their customers, and that may create the illusion that they don't experience the problems. These problems, however, are universal. They're just not plentiful. But all it takes is one missed important email to miss a job interview, an important message from a family member, etc. That I care enough to warn is important to me, and that it's continually viewed by you as incompetence is upsetting to me, but so be it.

Last edited by jarland : 8 Oct 2019 at 02:47 PM.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 03:16 PM   #562
jarland
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Anyway, on a more positive note, MXroute has grown up a lot and I'd love to share with you all.

As many of you have been aware my passion has been mostly on outbound email, getting it where it needs to go. For a long time my answer to that was that I couldn't do it alone, and I outsourced it to MailChannels for their unique configuration that would forward email from one IP to another if delivery had been rejected due to IP reputation.

MailChannels was great for a time, but over time delivery quality began to drop little by little. Perfectly fine emails would be rejected by filters, and more recently they even stopped forwarding emails to another IP if the email had been rejected due to the IP being blacklisted (this was unfortunately told to me directly after a complaint, and not up front, their advertising still says they do this).

Currently we have over 700 IP addresses, of immaculate reputation, in use for outbound delivery. This is a bit of a description of how the outbound email works right now:

When the email leaves the individual server, it goes to one of two redundant filter servers. From there, the email is filtered to reduce forwarded spam or malicious outbound events. Once filtered, it goes out to one of two redundant load balancers that go down the IP list and send each email to the next IP in line, balancing all of the traffic across our ranges. If an email is rejected, it is sent to another mail relay to try again from a different IP. For now, if it fails there, it goes to MailChannels as a final fallback. Given the way smtp_fallback functions, most of the email going out through MailChannels is just greylisted email, so that will likely be removed in the future for what we're considering to be a superior outbound delivery system.

We're also working on a new infrastructure that will eventually combine all servers into a giant geo-redundant cluster, and making great progress on it (already functional in many ways).

I'm happy to say that "tens of thousands of users" is not an understatement. MXroute is no longer a small email provider, even if we are still (and always will be) a family business. We're in this for the long game, and continually growing up as a service. It's been a pleasure to be able to share the process with all of you, and still plenty of it to come
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 03:57 PM   #563
janusz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jarland View Post
MXroute is no longer a small email provider, even if we are still (and always will be) a family business.
You may consider this as a great advantage, or as a huge warning flag....
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 04:10 PM   #564
jarland
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Originally Posted by janusz View Post
You may consider this as a great advantage, or as a huge warning flag....
Care to elaborate?

I've never cared for companies that wax corporate. In this day and age the faceless corporations are selling your data left and right. Suits and ties, outsourced support, investors, and self-serving press releases are not what make a company stable. Though, to some, they create a false appearance of it.

There are more than enough backup plans to see the company taken care of should something happen to me. By keeping it a small operation I won't have my business plan dictated by investors, I won't have high level staff replacements that change basic values over time, etc. It's easy to grow into a large office and start hiring a ton of people, but I don't like what happens to companies that reach this far. They forget their values eventually, and they turn on their customers. Time and time again.

Last edited by jarland : 8 Oct 2019 at 04:21 PM.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 04:41 PM   #565
janusz
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Originally Posted by jarland View Post
Care to elaborate?
I do not consider any "mom and pop" business better only because it's small and not faceless. There are many big and small companies going under, it's up to each individual to make his/her mind as to the advantages and risks of doing business with a giant or a minnow.

And to make it absolutely clear: I have no opinion about mxroute's stability, reliability, honesty &c, apart from what I read here.I simply do not blindly buy the argument "small=good, big=bad".
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 07:49 PM   #566
jarland
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Originally Posted by janusz View Post
I do not consider any "mom and pop" business better only because it's small and not faceless. There are many big and small companies going under, it's up to each individual to make his/her mind as to the advantages and risks of doing business with a giant or a minnow.

And to make it absolutely clear: I have no opinion about mxroute's stability, reliability, honesty &c, apart from what I read here.I simply do not blindly buy the argument "small=good, big=bad".
Thanks for clarifying. I can see how it was of extreme importance to express no opinion and how that lack of opinion could be swayed to the negative as equally as it could be swayed toward the positive.

For everything I love about this forum, it also feels like the "grumpy old man hangout" sometimes for that reason, just saying. Think happy thoughts, be positive, you don't have to inject negativity into everything just to see that it's been done you know. Yet, I’ve already been called incompetent, and told that my passion for small business may or may not be a bad thing within my brief return. Considering the low volume of activity altogether, that's not very welcome feeling. It's why I tend to not return for long periods of time. Perhaps that's the point I don't know. There's just more than enough places on the internet where nearly every interaction feels like it has to contain a negative element (reddit, Facebook, etc), I tend to prefer escapes from them these days.

Anyway, <3 from this side.

Last edited by jarland : 8 Oct 2019 at 08:22 PM.
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 08:36 PM   #567
Cory
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Originally Posted by jarland View Post
Thanks for clarifying. I can see how it was of extreme importance to express no opinion and how that lack of opinion could be swayed to the negative as equally as it could be swayed toward the positive.

For everything I love about this forum, it also feels like the "grumpy old man hangout" sometimes for that reason, just saying. Think happy thoughts, be positive, you don't have to inject negativity into everything just to see that it's been done you know. Yet, Iíve already been called incompetent, and told that my passion for small business may or may not be a bad thing within my brief return. Considering the low volume of activity altogether, that's not very welcome feeling. It's why I tend to not return for long periods of time. Perhaps that's the point I don't know. There's just more than enough places on the internet where nearly every interaction feels like it has to contain a negative element (reddit, Facebook, etc), I tend to prefer escapes from them these days.

Anyway, <3 from this side.
Agreed! Keep up the great work! I currently use your service for my low traffic email domains, however we are looking into moving all of our email to your service, as it has been flawless for our low traffic domains. Thank you for all you do for email!

#Positivity
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 08:48 PM   #568
jarland
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Originally Posted by Cory View Post
Agreed! Keep up the great work! I currently use your service for my low traffic email domains, however we are looking into moving all of our email to your service, as it has been flawless for our low traffic domains. Thank you for all you do for email!

#Positivity
Thanks Cory! Iíll keep trying to earn it
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 09:11 PM   #569
TenFour
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Google does not want your forwarded email, and I've proven it in that blog post with logs.
Google provides support documentation on forwarding emails to other accounts from Gmail: https://support.google.com/mail/answ..._topic=7280290

And when using Google Domains: https://support.google.com/domains/answer/3251241?hl=en

And provides best practices for forwarding email to Gmail: https://support.google.com/mail/answ..._topic=7280290

And so does Microsoft: https://support.office.com/en-us/art...3-ece42816d746

And of course POBox.com built a business around email forwarding: https://www.pobox.com/helpspot/index...kb.page&id=404
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Old 8 Oct 2019, 09:26 PM   #570
jarland
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Originally Posted by TenFour View Post
Google provides support documentation on forwarding emails to other accounts from Gmail: https://support.google.com/mail/answ..._topic=7280290

And when using Google Domains: https://support.google.com/domains/answer/3251241?hl=en

And provides best practices for forwarding email to Gmail: https://support.google.com/mail/answ..._topic=7280290

And so does Microsoft: https://support.office.com/en-us/art...3-ece42816d746

And of course POBox.com built a business around email forwarding: https://www.pobox.com/helpspot/index...kb.page&id=404
My accusation isn't that that don't offer it, it's that they don't want it. Their continued effort to make it difficult to consistently receive forwarded email in a quality that is at least equivalent to the quality of received email sent directly is my basis for this theory. The basis for that is this:

1. Email that would arrive at the inbox in Gmail is more likely to be filtered as spam for having been forwarded. Tested and confirmed.
2. They do not respect SRS, which is the standard for being courteous in forwarding, which I proved with log entries.

Again just because it works fine for you doesn't mean it works fine for everyone. I've shown in my logs that Google won't consistently receive a forwarded email from ymail.com, and that's just one of many that I've identified that they give the same treatment to. That one email represents one customer not receiving one email, and it wasn't related to IP reputation or the service they used. Those domains probably aren't domains that you need to receive email from, but others do and it should not be considered a negative thing that I want to warn my customers of that so that they don't miss an important email. Even if it's one out of a thousand customers that experiences it as a problem, one single customer not receiving an important email is priority #1 to me. I'm sure that customer doesn't matter to you, because "it just works" for you, but they do matter to me and that's why I'm out there trying to help them before they run into a problem.

Whether or not pobox wants to warn people that one out of X number of customers statistically might not receive email from one or more domains is for pobox to decide. Whether or not I'm competent or lying is not for you to decide, I've shown you the proof. I could be silent on it and you'd never hear about it because, like I said, only a tiny minority of customers experience it. Well I've always been one to speak up for the minority. I'll gladly dig in and show you more of the technical details:

These are the numbers from one relay:

[email protected]:/var/log# grep "google" srs2.log | grep "status=sent" | wc -l
5588
[email protected]:/var/log# grep "google" srs2.log | grep "DMARC" | wc -l
32

That's 5588 emails since log rotation that were forwarded to Google and accepted. That's 32 forwarded emails rejected by Google due to DMARC. All using SRS, none relating to IP reputation or the service used, as evident by the error:

> Unauthenticated email from {removed} is not accepted due to domain's DMARC policy.

Those 32 emails were only to 18 different customers, so you can imagine how many of my customers would say "it just works" as well. But those eighteen customers might not, and they do matter. Confirmation of that number:

[email protected]:/var/log# grep "google" srs2.log | grep "DMARC" | grep "to=" | awk '{print $7}' | sort | uniq | wc -l
18

To think that there's a secret whitelist that gets you around that policy is entirely unfounded. It is far more logical to assume that someone not seeing these errors does not need to receive email from these specific domains. To begin to theorize anything else, we would have to first agree that Google is lying only to me about that error and not to other services, because that error clearly states rejection based on the DMARC policy of the domain that we forwarded a received email from. Why wouldn't Google just say the real reason, if it were not the one they stated? Lying about the reason for rejection is more of a Microsoft trait (https://hostballs.com/t/microsoft-cl...ontent-senders) than a Google one.

So what we know factually, short of any conspiracy theory, is that 32 emails sent from one of our /24s since Oct 6 @ 06:26 CDT until now were not delivered due to reasons that do not relate to the service used. I assure you that other services see the same, and you have no evidence that they do not. While it works for you, there above were 5588 emails that worked too, and only 32 that didn't. Those 32 emails likely aren't going to be missed, but I'm still going to warn my customers of the chance of missing an important email because that's what an openly honest person who knows the facts would do.

So you can see why I'd much prefer if you didn't go out of your way to call me incompetent based on unfounded theories and a lack of data to compare to, while I'm simply trying to inform my customers of things that could result in them missing important emails. However few that may be.

Last edited by jarland : 8 Oct 2019 at 11:29 PM.
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