Possible membership fee increase - Page 3

gukein · 28 Mar 2002, 06:03 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by circuit
Maybe a softer approach would be to rename the Free account to "Trial" or "Basic", without giving time limits or fees. At least you'd be taking the emphasis off the "free" aspect and placing it on the "lack of features".

It's already called guest account and not free account.

Guke

**circuit** · 28 Mar 2002, 06:05 AM

Yep, that's my point though.... to me, "Trial" means something totally different from "Guest" - "Trial" takes the emphasis off the "free" aspect.

Jeremy Howard · 28 Mar 2002, 06:08 AM

Thanks so much everyone. It's really thoughtful and generous of you to provide such insightful feedback.

Quote:

As someone else pointed out, that one-time-fee is simply a short term infusion of cash but the member then becomes a cost for the lifetime of the business.

I just thought I'd respond to this particular comment, because obviously it's important to everyone that we stick around. In my past life I was a management consultant. In fact, all of us, including Rob and the non-exec directors, were. Our jobs were all about strategy, forecasting, valuation, etc. So if there's one thing we're careful about, it's getting the numbers right! Our models we use for business planning incorporate all aspects of the business, including the fact that member accounts are a one-time fee. They also include all the actual conversion rates we are observing, and all costs. They also include scenarios where conversion rates drop and costs increase.

We re-run these models every week. It was the change in recent conversion behaviour that led our worst-case model to flag that the NPV of new customers could be negative, and this led to the membership fee increase.

Of course, it may simply be that the new users take a little longer to upgrade, in which case the extra membership fee will simply result in extra revenue for us to spend to development, marketing, or a price decrease down the track.

**munchkin** · 28 Mar 2002, 06:08 AM

/me just nods...couldnt have said it better myself either

***Edwin*** · 28 Mar 2002, 08:38 AM

Perhaps one idea would be to make the ad module development (i.e. the thing that will put the text ads on the pages seen by Guest users) at the very, very top of the development queue.

And impose a uniform 2-line signature promoting fastmail.fm at the foot of every message sent by a Guest user, starting *now*.

The more you delay adding the ads (excuse the pun, please) the more:-

A) You'll get people signing up thinking its ad-free because fundamentally PEOPLE DON'T READ! (and in any case the ads are only mentioned in a sub-sub-page) and then you'll get undeserved negative publicity when you introduce the ads (again, no matter how well or how much you explain it at the time you add the ads, PEOPLE WON'T READ IT!)

B) You're missing out on the opportunity to gain benefits from the free users

Just my $0.02

Jeremy Howard · 28 Mar 2002, 08:57 AM

Where would you suggest we get text ads from Edwin? Any ideas on how to make them appropriate for the user?

BTW, we sent an email to all guests yesterday reminding them about the tag-lines, so hopefully there won't be too many surprised users come April 18. I think we better not add tag-lines until then, because we've said a number of time that that's the date that things are changing.

***Edwin*** · 28 Mar 2002, 09:05 AM

Jeremy,

If you're not collecting information about the user at signup then you know nothing about them!

Might be good to have a DIFFERENT signup process for Guest accounts than the paid accounts. For Guests, you ask them questions about what kind of things they're interested in (using checkboxes) and make it that they e.g. MUST check off at least 3 interests out of 30. So if they chose e.g. golf, fishing and cooking you would then show them golf, fishing and cooking ads primarily.

That way, you can also introduce coreg newsletters on the Guest signup page without much additional effort, since their signup process is ALREADY separate.

As for the ads, I think you're going to have to gradually build up your own "ad repertoire" over time using e.g. affiliate programs provided via Commission Junction and other networks. You'll have to rework most of the text ads provided by default as I usually find that they're atrocious!

Question: Are you 100% committed to making the ads text-only? I can't help thinking that a couple of banners might send some Guest users hurrying to their wallets to be able to get rid of "the big graphic things" that are slowing down their email experience.

gukein · 28 Mar 2002, 09:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Edwin

Question: Are you 100% committed to making the ads text-only? I can't help thinking that a couple of banners might send some Guest users hurrying to their wallets to be able to get rid of "the big graphic things" that are slowing down their email experience.

Some people think banners are cute and add beauty to the interface

.

I've almost never clicked a banner ad. But I've clicked the text ads appearing in Google. I think text ads are more effective.

Guke

***Edwin*** · 28 Mar 2002, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by gukein
I've almost never clicked a banner ad. But I've clicked the text ads appearing in Google. I think text ads are more effective.

I agree that if your only aim is to get responses to ads, then text ads are more effective.

If - and let's at least acknowledge the possibility frankly - one of the aims is to "annoy" free users to help encourage them to pay to get rid of the ads (amongst other benefits of a paid service, of course!) then banners are MUCH more effective... indeed, a heavy diet of banners, popups/popunders, buttons etc. would be MOST effective - but that would have the negative side effect of leaving you with no users

All I'm trying to highlight is the fact that there are two potentially conflicting "needs" here... on the one hand, improving the response level to ads is a good way to start monetizing the free service (bearing in mind that an audience of free email users has been found by many, many companies to be one of the least responsive possible audiences when it comes to advertising!) and other the other hand ads can be an interesting "prod" to push people to pay to get rid of them!

oysterquartz · 28 Mar 2002, 09:30 AM

I think that you should be very explicit regarding what the "Guest" account offers presently over and above what the "Guest" account will offer as configured post April 18th.

People don't read in actuality, and I am certain some will be "shocked" to discover the "newly" placed restrictions on SMTP/POP, along with the imposition of tag lines, etc.

You may suffer a backlash as some users may think that you are really reneging on the "FREE" no advertisements, with included POP/SMTP, email service, and now "suddenly" placing restrictions.

FREE is a powerful motivator for sign ups ... and the FREE = GUEST users may prove to be the most "righteous" when eventually denied their perks ...

Regarding ADS or Banners .. response rates may be very low, but I think you'd have two objectives:

1. Monetize the Free=Guest user base by selling ADS on CPM or referral commission, etc. At least "nuisance" value may convince some to upgrade.

2. Use tag lines in Free=Guest emails to possibly "convert" recipients of these emails to paying members! To me, this is the most direct means of monetizing Guests ... since we all know how effective Banners are in conversions. But at least the tags, if hyperlinkable, and effective, will make every Free=Guest email a promotional one ...

***Edwin*** · 28 Mar 2002, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by oysterquartz
I think that you should be very explicit regarding what the "Guest" account offers presently over and above what the "Guest" account will offer as configured post April 18th.

... using few words, large fonts, lots of colours and bold text and in a very prominent place (since we already know that people don't read!)

That's also why splitting the free/for-fee signup pages can be good... even though you'll lose some free signups by doing so, you can put a "middle" page before the actual free signup page, with the above-mentioned short, large, colorful, clear, direct message

erimess · 28 Mar 2002, 10:41 AM

OK, here's my take on this whole "free" issue. I can't really make comments about whether things are going to be OK doing a one-time-fee membership, because I haven't looked at the numbers or projections. However, I can comment on how I felt being out there looking for a new email service.

I'd gotten used to free email. I already knew it might be tough to replace what I liked about Alta Vista. I'm really big into the web interface and don't seem to be as interested in some of the things like lots of storage and ability to use domain names and what have you. (However, whoever mentioned yanking the space for free users down to 2mg should be shot.

I would've passed that right by. I don't need 50mg or anything but 2mg is less than what I was getting, and from looking around, it looks like I was on the low end with AV.)

I wasn't finding an interface that worked like I wanted. So an important point is that how would I know what the interface was like unless I signed up and started using it? Why would I pay to do that? About the only feature I was really interested in that wasn't included with Guest was having more than one from address -- other than that, the Guest level seemed fine to me, and it was mostly cause of the interface more than anything else. So it was really important to me to be able to try it first. Even if I was interested in all these other features, I wouldn't trust reading a table that listed them, and trust that I really understood what was meant. And I wouldn't want to pay to find out, and then find out it wasn't what I thought.

A point that I also should make is that I'm not a check-my-10-emails-once-a-week user who could care less about anything. I'm also not a "power" user. I'm more familiar with the Internet than many of my friends but not to a geekish level. Just to let you know what level I'm coming from. (I've been called a nerd, but never a geek.)

The one-time fee thing really turned me on. I saw that when I signed up, knowing full well that for that little, one time fee I'd likely upgrade if I liked it. Didn't seem like much for a one time fee, and I'd get my second "from" address. (Which is important to me.)

I know I'm only one person, but without that free account, I wouldn't be here. In fact, I heard about Runbox on here, saw the yearly fee -- left. I keep hearing about this one-week (or whatever) trial period they have but I didn't see that on their site.

I think what Edwin originally proposed -- I don't remember it exactly, but it included lowering some features for the Guest level -- sounded very good. A few less features would prompt more people to at least move to Member. The Member level thing really turned me on and without it, I don't think I would've considered a paying level at all. Even if it's not a continuing cash flow, it's more than free. I don't think a $20 one-time fee would bother me. (Although I do understand that some people are on such tight budgets that they need that $20 for groceries. I used to be there.)

I also don't have a problem with making free a trial basis, as long as the Member level is kept. I don't think that would've turned me off because I wouldn't have waited six months to decide and then had to change addresses again. I would've done exactly like I did -- send myself stuff back and forth, without ever giving out the address to anyone. I would've figured out pretty quick if I didn't like it or want to pay for it. (BTW, I was sending out change-of-address notices within one week.)

I guess my main point here is that I wouldn't want to pay for something that I haven't tried using yet, especially when I was so particular about the interface, which is generally something you don't see before you sign up. (At least J & R are good about having the FAQs available for non-members to look at. I signed up at some places that really gave me no info at all. But they were free so I thought I'd try them.)

I think banner ads would be OK, as long as they didn't interfere with the service too much. A good example: I have Net Zero free internet service (just as an extra cushion of time to my paying ISP) and I would never use their paying service. The reason is mostly cause I've been too turned off by bad service. Of course they claim the service gets better with the paid version, but I have a hard time trusting something I've had a bad experience with. And it isn't just slow download times. Oh, and I think tag lines are perfectly acceptable for the Guest level. But frankly, I'm not sure anyone reads them. I know I don't.

BTW, whoever suggested a substantial difference for the long-term committment: I would never do it. Cash flow is an issue, even if it's cheaper per year. And I also wouldn't make a three-year committment to any email, or much of anything for that matter. But that's just me.

Sorry if this is long-winded, but as I was reading all this, I just knew I had to get my, er, 20c in.

erimess · 28 Mar 2002, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Howard
We have decided to go ahead with the increase. It's likely to happen in the next couple of days.

Yes, I saw that email today. I just have a couple of questions. I would've sworn I saw somewhere, whether here or in the FAQs, that the Member fees paid could count towards subscribers fees if one moves up. But you just said to someone in another thread what sounded like this was not true, and furthermore, that subscriber levels still had a "sign-up" fee. There is no mention of sign-up fees on the pricing table. But you also mentioned some kind of waiver until April 18. Can you explain this a little better?

I think also someone(s) already asked if one pays for a subscriber fee, then that definitely does count as your Member payment if you want to move down a level later. This is correct?

Thanks.

**circuit** · 28 Mar 2002, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by erimess
I think also someone(s) already asked if one pays for a subscriber fee, then that definitely does count as your Member payment if you want to move down a level later. This is correct?

Yes this is correct AFAIK. I asked about it a few weeks ago. If a Full user decided not to renew their subscription, they would be downgraded to Member.

***Edwin*** · 28 Mar 2002, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by erimess
Yes, I saw that email today. I just have a couple of questions. I would've sworn I saw somewhere, whether here or in the FAQs, that the Member fees paid could count towards subscribers fees if one moves up. But you just said to someone in another thread what sounded like this was not true, and furthermore, that subscriber levels still had a "sign-up" fee. There is no mention of sign-up fees on the pricing table. But you also mentioned some kind of waiver until April 18. Can you explain this a little better?

I think part of the problem IMO is that the information about pricing, charges, levels etc. is split over too many pages on the Fastmail.fm site.

There is an overview of the service levels at http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/about.html that doesn't mention the sign-up fee.

There is then the pricing table at http://www.fastmail.fm/docs/pricingtbl.html that has a few discrepancies compared to the "about.html" page (but of the order of $0.05)

There is also the pricing table on the signup page at http://www.fastmail.fm/mail/signup/ and that is where the sign-up fee is mentioned.

Hope this helps the Fastmail.fm team figure out what to change and where.

(Ideally, there should be only two pages: the feature table and the signup page with the front page pointing to the feature table rather than the about.html page)

28 Mar 2002, 09:30 AM	#40
oysterquartz The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Athens Posts: 2,402	I agree with Edwin ... I think that you should be very explicit regarding what the "Guest" account offers presently over and above what the "Guest" account will offer as configured post April 18th. People don't read in actuality, and I am certain some will be "shocked" to discover the "newly" placed restrictions on SMTP/POP, along with the imposition of tag lines, etc. You may suffer a backlash as some users may think that you are really reneging on the "FREE" no advertisements, with included POP/SMTP, email service, and now "suddenly" placing restrictions. FREE is a powerful motivator for sign ups ... and the FREE = GUEST users may prove to be the most "righteous" when eventually denied their perks ... Regarding ADS or Banners .. response rates may be very low, but I think you'd have two objectives: 1. Monetize the Free=Guest user base by selling ADS on CPM or referral commission, etc. At least "nuisance" value may convince some to upgrade. 2. Use tag lines in Free=Guest emails to possibly "convert" recipients of these emails to paying members! To me, this is the most direct means of monetizing Guests ... since we all know how effective Banners are in conversions. But at least the tags, if hyperlinkable, and effective, will make every Free=Guest email a promotional one ... Last edited by oysterquartz : 28 Mar 2002 at 09:42 AM.

28 Mar 2002, 06:05 AM	#32
circuit Moderator Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: UK Posts: 343	Yep, that's my point though.... to me, "Trial" means something totally different from "Guest" - "Trial" takes the emphasis off the "free" aspect.

28 Mar 2002, 06:08 AM	#34
munchkin Moderator Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Milliways Posts: 1,165	/me just nods...couldnt have said it better myself either

28 Mar 2002, 08:38 AM	#35
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	Perhaps one idea would be to make the ad module development (i.e. the thing that will put the text ads on the pages seen by Guest users) at the very, very top of the development queue. And impose a uniform 2-line signature promoting fastmail.fm at the foot of every message sent by a Guest user, starting now. The more you delay adding the ads (excuse the pun, please) the more:- A) You'll get people signing up thinking its ad-free because fundamentally PEOPLE DON'T READ! (and in any case the ads are only mentioned in a sub-sub-page) and then you'll get undeserved negative publicity when you introduce the ads (again, no matter how well or how much you explain it at the time you add the ads, PEOPLE WON'T READ IT!) B) You're missing out on the opportunity to gain benefits from the free users Just my $0.02

28 Mar 2002, 08:57 AM	#36
Jeremy Howard Ultimate Contributor Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Australia Posts: 11,501	Where would you suggest we get text ads from Edwin? Any ideas on how to make them appropriate for the user? BTW, we sent an email to all guests yesterday reminding them about the tag-lines, so hopefully there won't be too many surprised users come April 18. I think we better not add tag-lines until then, because we've said a number of time that that's the date that things are changing.

28 Mar 2002, 09:05 AM	#37
*Edwin* Administrator Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: UK Posts: 3,118	Jeremy, If you're not collecting information about the user at signup then you know nothing about them! Might be good to have a DIFFERENT signup process for Guest accounts than the paid accounts. For Guests, you ask them questions about what kind of things they're interested in (using checkboxes) and make it that they e.g. MUST check off at least 3 interests out of 30. So if they chose e.g. golf, fishing and cooking you would then show them golf, fishing and cooking ads primarily. That way, you can also introduce coreg newsletters on the Guest signup page without much additional effort, since their signup process is ALREADY separate. As for the ads, I think you're going to have to gradually build up your own "ad repertoire" over time using e.g. affiliate programs provided via Commission Junction and other networks. You'll have to rework most of the text ads provided by default as I usually find that they're atrocious! Question: Are you 100% committed to making the ads text-only? I can't help thinking that a couple of banners might send some Guest users hurrying to their wallets to be able to get rid of "the big graphic things" that are slowing down their email experience.

28 Mar 2002, 10:41 AM	#42
erimess Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: U.S. Posts: 163	OK, here's my take on this whole "free" issue. I can't really make comments about whether things are going to be OK doing a one-time-fee membership, because I haven't looked at the numbers or projections. However, I can comment on how I felt being out there looking for a new email service. I'd gotten used to free email. I already knew it might be tough to replace what I liked about Alta Vista. I'm really big into the web interface and don't seem to be as interested in some of the things like lots of storage and ability to use domain names and what have you. (However, whoever mentioned yanking the space for free users down to 2mg should be shot. I would've passed that right by. I don't need 50mg or anything but 2mg is less than what I was getting, and from looking around, it looks like I was on the low end with AV.) I wasn't finding an interface that worked like I wanted. So an important point is that how would I know what the interface was like unless I signed up and started using it? Why would I pay to do that? About the only feature I was really interested in that wasn't included with Guest was having more than one from address -- other than that, the Guest level seemed fine to me, and it was mostly cause of the interface more than anything else. So it was really important to me to be able to try it first. Even if I was interested in all these other features, I wouldn't trust reading a table that listed them, and trust that I really understood what was meant. And I wouldn't want to pay to find out, and then find out it wasn't what I thought. A point that I also should make is that I'm not a check-my-10-emails-once-a-week user who could care less about anything. I'm also not a "power" user. I'm more familiar with the Internet than many of my friends but not to a geekish level. Just to let you know what level I'm coming from. (I've been called a nerd, but never a geek.) The one-time fee thing really turned me on. I saw that when I signed up, knowing full well that for that little, one time fee I'd likely upgrade if I liked it. Didn't seem like much for a one time fee, and I'd get my second "from" address. (Which is important to me.) I know I'm only one person, but without that free account, I wouldn't be here. In fact, I heard about Runbox on here, saw the yearly fee -- left. I keep hearing about this one-week (or whatever) trial period they have but I didn't see that on their site. I think what Edwin originally proposed -- I don't remember it exactly, but it included lowering some features for the Guest level -- sounded very good. A few less features would prompt more people to at least move to Member. The Member level thing really turned me on and without it, I don't think I would've considered a paying level at all. Even if it's not a continuing cash flow, it's more than free. I don't think a $20 one-time fee would bother me. (Although I do understand that some people are on such tight budgets that they need that $20 for groceries. I used to be there.) I also don't have a problem with making free a trial basis, as long as the Member level is kept. I don't think that would've turned me off because I wouldn't have waited six months to decide and then had to change addresses again. I would've done exactly like I did -- send myself stuff back and forth, without ever giving out the address to anyone. I would've figured out pretty quick if I didn't like it or want to pay for it. (BTW, I was sending out change-of-address notices within one week.) I guess my main point here is that I wouldn't want to pay for something that I haven't tried using yet, especially when I was so particular about the interface, which is generally something you don't see before you sign up. (At least J & R are good about having the FAQs available for non-members to look at. I signed up at some places that really gave me no info at all. But they were free so I thought I'd try them.) I think banner ads would be OK, as long as they didn't interfere with the service too much. A good example: I have Net Zero free internet service (just as an extra cushion of time to my paying ISP) and I would never use their paying service. The reason is mostly cause I've been too turned off by bad service. Of course they claim the service gets better with the paid version, but I have a hard time trusting something I've had a bad experience with. And it isn't just slow download times. Oh, and I think tag lines are perfectly acceptable for the Guest level. But frankly, I'm not sure anyone reads them. I know I don't. BTW, whoever suggested a substantial difference for the long-term committment: I would never do it. Cash flow is an issue, even if it's cheaper per year. And I also wouldn't make a three-year committment to any email, or much of anything for that matter. But that's just me. Sorry if this is long-winded, but as I was reading all this, I just knew I had to get my, er, 20c in.