Gmail allows External SMTP; "On Behalf Of" Can be Gone

kaptitsky · 31 Jul 2009, 10:15 AM

http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/0...s-without.html

You have to go to the second page of edit info.

kaptitsky · 31 Jul 2009, 10:44 AM

You can specify a Google Apps hosted domain as SMTP.

You cannot specify to use a different SMTP for another Gmail account.

======

Haven't been able to get it to work with Yahoo yet, even using their settings.

Quote:

Server Settings
Incoming Mail Server (POP3): pop.mail.yahoo.com

Use SSL, port: 995
Outgoing Mail Server (SMTP): smtp.mail.yahoo.com

Use SSL, port: 465, use authentication
Account Name/Username: FULL ADDRESS
Email address: FULL ADDRESS
Password: Your Yahoo! Mail password

===============================

Gmail will use TLS unless you specify use of SSL.

If the other SMTP server doesn't support either of those protocols, you are SOL.

amitraj · 31 Jul 2009, 06:58 PM

What is the error that you get when you specify smtp.mail.yahoo.com?

kaptitsky · 31 Jul 2009, 08:33 PM

Yahoo errors, all with server "smtp.mail.yahoo.com"

With SSL checked, on any port, "Couldn't reach server. Please double-check the server and port number. "

Without SSL checked on port 465 " Your other email provider is responding too slowly. Please try again later, or contact the administrator of your other domain for further information. "

Without SSL checked on port 25 or 587: "Authentication failed. Please check your username/password.
[Server response: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 500 Remote server does not support TLS (state 6). code(500) ] "

beq · 1 Aug 2009, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaptitsky

Haven't been able to get it to work with Yahoo yet, even using their settings.

From http://mail.google.com/support/bin/a...y?answer=22370:

"Also, this new version of custom 'From:' doesn't work with Yahoo! Mail Plus accounts just yet, but we've reached out to Yahoo! to try to get it working."

Quote:

Originally Posted by kaptitsky

You can specify a Google Apps hosted domain as SMTP.

That's interesting. Conversely, Google Apps Premier/Education accounts can also send from nickname and domain alias addresses directly without having the "Sender" header added:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gmail Blog

If you use Google Apps Premier or Education edition and would like to send mail as another address within your domain or within an aliased domain, no sweat. We do all the work behind the scenes so your original username won't be listed in the "Sender" header, and your recipients won't see "on behalf of."

P.S. I wonder why no one adopts FastMail's approach to force SMTP envelope from to avoid SPF issues?

kaptitsky · 1 Aug 2009, 10:46 AM

http://mail.google.com/support/bin/a...y?answer=22370

(works better without the colon)

Interesting to note that this "custom from" change only works in the web client, and they suggest using the other SMTP to send mail in a local client.

You lose the filing of the outgoing mail in Gmail by doing that. Be nice for all Gmail SMTP to follow these sending instructions.

Oh well. Maybe tomorrow.

paul33 · 3 Aug 2009, 01:07 AM

imo foolish they waited so long for this simple , but so important step to make, since other mail providers offers this long time ago (yahoo i.e.).

But still im happy about it, i could use now my google apps domain with gmail (forward to normal gmail, and sent as...) i would like to do this cause, google apps lacks features like notebook, reader and so on compared to normal gmail.

But one problem still left. gmail chat function.
when i log in to gmail, im not login to google apps,
and my buddies can not see me,,,,,
can i make aliases or so
i mean can i signed in with my google apps name, when i sign in to my normal gmail...?

kaptitsky · 3 Aug 2009, 02:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul33

imo foolish they waited so long for this simple , but so important step to make, since other mail providers offers this long time ago (yahoo i.e.).

I know of no other provider who offers authenticated SMTP for outbound messages other than their own.

Gmail has a strong commitment to enforcing e-mail protocols that reduce SPAM, which is why they always included an authenticated sender in all emails, even when they allow changing the FROM address.

In my view, that commitment is smart for the long term health of e-mail.

And I find their unique and effective solution to be very smart.

Quote:

But one problem still left. gmail chat function.
when i log in to gmail, im not login to google apps,
and my buddies can not see me,,,,,
can i make aliases or so
i mean can i signed in with my google apps name, when i sign in to my normal gmail...?

As far as I can tell, the integrated chat in Gmail only allows login with your logged in address and one other AOL/AIM screen name.

I know of no option to allow multiple chat logins in Gmail.

I know that there are other chat services that do allow multiple logins. Maybe if you create a new thread to ask what services have this, people will offer suggestions.

xmailer · 7 Aug 2009, 07:02 AM

I've tried all possible configurations with my i12.com address which I use as a forwarding address for much of my personal email, and which is supposed to have SMTP available, and none of them worked with this new feature either, only producing the same error messages kaptitsky mentioned above, and possibly one or two additional ones.

It looks like Gmail's somewhat strict requirements may somewhat seriously limit the usefulness of this feature. But maybe I'll be able to come up with an email address I can live with that will work eventually, although I won't be happy about having to change the address which at least some of my correspondents have been reaching me through for at least a few years now just to have the benefit of using Gmail in a tolerable manner.

kaptitsky · 7 Aug 2009, 07:59 AM

My current strategy with offbeat mail providers (including Yahoo) is to try port 25.

If I get a "No TLS" message, I try SSL and Port 465.

If I get a timeout on that, I know it ain't gonna work.

I know TLS isn't required by the POP3 standards, but my feeling is that any provider who hasn't implemented it by now really hasn't been keeping up on their server updates, and that means their future is, well, open to question.

The www.i12.com website ( just i12.com doesn't work) mentions that they are planning to introduce a new range of services in August & September 2004.

Hmmmmm. . . .

kaptitsky · 7 Aug 2009, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmailer

But maybe I'll be able to come up with an email address I can live with that will work eventually, although I won't be happy about having to change the address which at least some of my correspondents have been reaching me through for at least a few years now just to have the benefit of using Gmail in a tolerable manner.

All you really have to have is a mail account that has SMTP auth that doesn't do envelope validation. If the other SMTP lets you send and doesn't care what return address you put in, it will work (as long as it supports TLS or SSL)

Some have noted that they could send all their mail through the FastMail server, since their SMTP login allows them to send with any address.

Gmail doesn't seem to require that the domain name of the address and the SMTP server match, rather they let the sending SMTP decide how to handle mail from that domain name.

xmailer · 7 Aug 2009, 08:14 AM

Yeah, the i12.com website hasn't seemed to have been updated for a little while now (to perhaps understate it), yet oddly it continues to work very reliably most of the time, aside from the major outage they had earlier this year when they were apparently paying so close attention to things that they let their domain expire and apparently took quite awhile to get it renewed again.

Of course, I seriously considered abandoning the service then, but as everything's seemed to be working fine again ever since then, I've procrastinated about "replacing" my i12.com address due to indecisiveness about which service to replace it with. But this issue may be enough to force me to overcome my 'inertia' if one or more of the other alternative services I've considered does work with this Gmail feature.

kaptitsky · 7 Aug 2009, 10:38 PM

I just spent some time looking for a free mail service that has SMTP without envelope validation (the "From" address does not have to match the login address) that could be used with Gmail.

I can use it with the SMTP from my paid hosting account, but not everyone has a paid hosting account.

MyRealBox works, with your MRB address in the headers, fair enough, but you can't get an MRB account (and with their delivery challenges, you probably wouldn't want one.)

Uk2.net also works; maybe it's worth a pound.

Lavabit and GMX appear to work; the mail goes away, but it doesn't seem to arrive. I suspect that they throw it into the bit-bucket.

I know that AOL, Hotmail/Live won't work, and Yahoo doesn't work with this feature at all, and probably won't for some time until they enable TLS or SSL.

Anyone have any suggestions for a currently open free mail provider with authenticated SMTP & TLS or SSL that will work without envelope validation?

xmailer · 8 Aug 2009, 05:53 AM

Thanks for the above tips/suggestions. It had never even occurred to me to consider using an SMTP server other than that of the service of the "from" address itself, since I haven't had reason to do that since many years ago when I believe I did use my Earthlink ISP's SMTP server to send from "unrelated" addresses when I was still using a local client (which I haven't used for I don't even remember how many years now). And offhand, I can't recall ever being aware of any free email providers allowing use of their SMTP servers for sending from "external" addresses. And I don't even currently have an ISP account or ISP email access of my own, currently only being on a "borrowed" wireless connection with someone else's internet connection (with that party's permission).

Although I have on somewhat rare occasions used the Fastmail.fm webmail interface in order to send a message "from" an alternate address, I guess one reason that possibility may have never occurred to me until you mentioned it is because I've only had a "member" account there for the past four or five years, since allowing my "full" account to "fall back" to that level at that time, and not ever using a local client anymore, nor having any other reason to give much thought to it lately, I wasn't even sure that I had SMTP access at my current Fastmail account level. And with that service level no longer being offered, even after reading your mention of it I was unable to find any information at the fastmail site clearly spelling out which features it does and doesn't have.

But since the best information I could find there seemed to suggest that only "non-paid" accounts didn't have such access, and since technically the Membership account is (or was) a "paid" service, even if just a "one-off", I decided it was worth a try, and edited my Gmail settings to use the Fastmail server. Following your above-described "strategy", I first tried port 25 without SSL and that seemed to be accepted. So I sent a test message to several other of my own addresses at different services, and sure enough my Gmail address wasn't anywhere in the headers of the received message. I haven't yet tried it with the SSL setting, which I may do later, but at least I know I have something which works to solve the infamous "on behalf of issue" for myself for as long as my "lifetime" fastmail "Member" account features are honored by that serviice.

It's not an ideal solution, since I would much prefer to use the actual SMTP server of the "from" address's own service, but at least it is a practical solution for myself, for now, if still not of any value to anyone who may not have any sort of paid alternative for use with their "external" free email address(es). It also might have inherent limitations for myself if I sent many or very large messages by this means, owing to Fastmail's somewhat notoriously restrictive bandwidth and storage limitations. But since I really don't send many messages "from" my i12.com address, and almost never very large ones, hopefully that shouldn't ever prove a serious issue for me.

(On a side note, has anyone else noticed that it doesn't any longer even seem possible to view full headers in either the Hotmail or "classic" Yahoo webmail interfaces? Or if it is, it doesn't seem nearly as easy to find these options as it used to be. So, while these services have been upgraded in some ways, such as in the storage capacity, the addition of POP access to the former, and finally increasing the limit on the number of filters in the latter, my general impression is that the web interfaces of both these large services have only been further "dumbed down" from their earlier incarnations.)

nbarr · 8 Aug 2009, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xmailer

... (On a side note, has anyone else noticed that it doesn't any longer even seem possible to view full headers in either the Hotmail or "classic" Yahoo webmail interfaces? Or if it is, it doesn't seem nearly as easy to find these options as it used to be. So, while these services have been upgraded in some ways, such as in the storage capacity, the addition of POP access to the former, and finally increasing the limit on the number of filters in the latter, my general impression is that the web interfaces of both these large services have only been further "dumbed down" from their earlier incarnations.)

In Hotmail if you select a message by right clicking you will see "View message source" which will show the headers.
I don't know about Yahoo classic.

31 Jul 2009, 10:15 AM	#1
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	Gmail allows External SMTP; "On Behalf Of" Can be Gone http://gmailblog.blogspot.com/2009/0...s-without.html You have to go to the second page of edit info.

7 Aug 2009, 10:38 PM	#13
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	I just spent some time looking for a free mail service that has SMTP without envelope validation (the "From" address does not have to match the login address) that could be used with Gmail. I can use it with the SMTP from my paid hosting account, but not everyone has a paid hosting account. MyRealBox works, with your MRB address in the headers, fair enough, but you can't get an MRB account (and with their delivery challenges, you probably wouldn't want one.) Uk2.net also works; maybe it's worth a pound. Lavabit and GMX appear to work; the mail goes away, but it doesn't seem to arrive. I suspect that they throw it into the bit-bucket. I know that AOL, Hotmail/Live won't work, and Yahoo doesn't work with this feature at all, and probably won't for some time until they enable TLS or SSL. Anyone have any suggestions for a currently open free mail provider with authenticated SMTP & TLS or SSL that will work without envelope validation? Last edited by kaptitsky : 7 Aug 2009 at 11:17 PM.

8 Aug 2009, 05:53 AM	#14
xmailer Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA Posts: 5,485	Thanks for the above tips/suggestions. It had never even occurred to me to consider using an SMTP server other than that of the service of the "from" address itself, since I haven't had reason to do that since many years ago when I believe I did use my Earthlink ISP's SMTP server to send from "unrelated" addresses when I was still using a local client (which I haven't used for I don't even remember how many years now). And offhand, I can't recall ever being aware of any free email providers allowing use of their SMTP servers for sending from "external" addresses. And I don't even currently have an ISP account or ISP email access of my own, currently only being on a "borrowed" wireless connection with someone else's internet connection (with that party's permission). Although I have on somewhat rare occasions used the Fastmail.fm webmail interface in order to send a message "from" an alternate address, I guess one reason that possibility may have never occurred to me until you mentioned it is because I've only had a "member" account there for the past four or five years, since allowing my "full" account to "fall back" to that level at that time, and not ever using a local client anymore, nor having any other reason to give much thought to it lately, I wasn't even sure that I had SMTP access at my current Fastmail account level. And with that service level no longer being offered, even after reading your mention of it I was unable to find any information at the fastmail site clearly spelling out which features it does and doesn't have. But since the best information I could find there seemed to suggest that only "non-paid" accounts didn't have such access, and since technically the Membership account is (or was) a "paid" service, even if just a "one-off", I decided it was worth a try, and edited my Gmail settings to use the Fastmail server. Following your above-described "strategy", I first tried port 25 without SSL and that seemed to be accepted. So I sent a test message to several other of my own addresses at different services, and sure enough my Gmail address wasn't anywhere in the headers of the received message. I haven't yet tried it with the SSL setting, which I may do later, but at least I know I have something which works to solve the infamous "on behalf of issue" for myself for as long as my "lifetime" fastmail "Member" account features are honored by that serviice. It's not an ideal solution, since I would much prefer to use the actual SMTP server of the "from" address's own service, but at least it is a practical solution for myself, for now, if still not of any value to anyone who may not have any sort of paid alternative for use with their "external" free email address(es). It also might have inherent limitations for myself if I sent many or very large messages by this means, owing to Fastmail's somewhat notoriously restrictive bandwidth and storage limitations. But since I really don't send many messages "from" my i12.com address, and almost never very large ones, hopefully that shouldn't ever prove a serious issue for me. (On a side note, has anyone else noticed that it doesn't any longer even seem possible to view full headers in either the Hotmail or "classic" Yahoo webmail interfaces? Or if it is, it doesn't seem nearly as easy to find these options as it used to be. So, while these services have been upgraded in some ways, such as in the storage capacity, the addition of POP access to the former, and finally increasing the limit on the number of filters in the latter, my general impression is that the web interfaces of both these large services have only been further "dumbed down" from their earlier incarnations.) Last edited by xmailer : 8 Aug 2009 at 06:03 AM.

31 Jul 2009, 06:58 PM	#3
amitraj Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: NJ Posts: 86	What is the error that you get when you specify smtp.mail.yahoo.com?

31 Jul 2009, 08:33 PM	#4
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	Yahoo errors, all with server "smtp.mail.yahoo.com" With SSL checked, on any port, "Couldn't reach server. Please double-check the server and port number. " Without SSL checked on port 465 " Your other email provider is responding too slowly. Please try again later, or contact the administrator of your other domain for further information. " Without SSL checked on port 25 or 587: "Authentication failed. Please check your username/password. [Server response: Google tried to deliver your message, but it was rejected by the recipient domain. We recommend contacting the other email provider for further information about the cause of this error. The error that the other server returned was: 500 Remote server does not support TLS (state 6). code(500) ] "

1 Aug 2009, 10:46 AM	#6
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	http://mail.google.com/support/bin/a...y?answer=22370 (works better without the colon) Interesting to note that this "custom from" change only works in the web client, and they suggest using the other SMTP to send mail in a local client. You lose the filing of the outgoing mail in Gmail by doing that. Be nice for all Gmail SMTP to follow these sending instructions. Oh well. Maybe tomorrow.

3 Aug 2009, 01:07 AM	#7
paul33 Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 179	imo foolish they waited so long for this simple , but so important step to make, since other mail providers offers this long time ago (yahoo i.e.). But still im happy about it, i could use now my google apps domain with gmail (forward to normal gmail, and sent as...) i would like to do this cause, google apps lacks features like notebook, reader and so on compared to normal gmail. But one problem still left. gmail chat function. when i log in to gmail, im not login to google apps, and my buddies can not see me,,,,, can i make aliases or so i mean can i signed in with my google apps name, when i sign in to my normal gmail...?

7 Aug 2009, 07:02 AM	#9
xmailer Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA Posts: 5,485	I've tried all possible configurations with my i12.com address which I use as a forwarding address for much of my personal email, and which is supposed to have SMTP available, and none of them worked with this new feature either, only producing the same error messages kaptitsky mentioned above, and possibly one or two additional ones. It looks like Gmail's somewhat strict requirements may somewhat seriously limit the usefulness of this feature. But maybe I'll be able to come up with an email address I can live with that will work eventually, although I won't be happy about having to change the address which at least some of my correspondents have been reaching me through for at least a few years now just to have the benefit of using Gmail in a tolerable manner.

7 Aug 2009, 07:59 AM	#10
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	My current strategy with offbeat mail providers (including Yahoo) is to try port 25. If I get a "No TLS" message, I try SSL and Port 465. If I get a timeout on that, I know it ain't gonna work. I know TLS isn't required by the POP3 standards, but my feeling is that any provider who hasn't implemented it by now really hasn't been keeping up on their server updates, and that means their future is, well, open to question. The www.i12.com website ( just i12.com doesn't work) mentions that they are planning to introduce a new range of services in August & September 2004. Hmmmmm. . . .

7 Aug 2009, 08:14 AM	#12
xmailer Intergalactic Postmaster Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: USA Posts: 5,485	Yeah, the i12.com website hasn't seemed to have been updated for a little while now (to perhaps understate it), yet oddly it continues to work very reliably most of the time, aside from the major outage they had earlier this year when they were apparently paying so close attention to things that they let their domain expire and apparently took quite awhile to get it renewed again. Of course, I seriously considered abandoning the service then, but as everything's seemed to be working fine again ever since then, I've procrastinated about "replacing" my i12.com address due to indecisiveness about which service to replace it with. But this issue may be enough to force me to overcome my 'inertia' if one or more of the other alternative services I've considered does work with this Gmail feature.