It's happening - AOL jumps into free e-mail business - Page 2

**ReuvenNY** · 13 May 2005, 02:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sherry
[B even after the message is received, it can be cancelled if it hasn't been read yet.
Sherry [/b]

Well, there are some missing words there. If you said "even after the message is received BY THE SERVER, it can be cancelled if it hasn't been DOWNLOADED AND read yet" - the comment would be correct.
The words in CAPITALS are my additions.

FMRocks · 13 May 2005, 02:38 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReuvenNY
Not really: it allows the sender to intercept HIS message on the AOL server, BEFORE it reaches the recipient Inbox.

That's not what it says. It says, "Users can cancel and unsend a message after it's been sent to another AOL or AIM Mail user if the message has not been read." It doesn't say that users can cancel or unsend if the message has not yet been *delivered* but if it had not beeen *read.* In other words, this means even if a message has been delivered, but the recepient has not yet read it (i.e. the message is sitting in their mailbox as a "new" message), the sender can delete it.

**Sherry** · 13 May 2005, 02:53 AM

Ok, the only way I can see this working is:

Someone sends an email to another AOL user. That mail is available right away however if the person hasn't logged into their account for say 6 hours then they do not know they even have a new email. During that 6 hour period the sender could cancel the email. If a receiver of the email logs in, one minute after the sender has sent it, and sees they have a new email then it can't be cancelled.

Based on that idea, it doesn't really have anything to do with actually reading the mail but whether or not the receiver has seen they have new mail???

Sherry

**ReuvenNY** · 13 May 2005, 03:23 AM

I think that what Sherry explained above, is the way it basically works. Which is what I also meant above - If it was seen by the recipient (read or not), it was either downloaded or viewed on the server. At this point it can not be retracted.
If it can be "unsent" that means it has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient.
So let's think for a second: if it "has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient" where is the message? On the server!
The way AOL explains it is geared to the lay reader who will be thrown of balance with terms like Server. The mere fact that they use the word "unsend" proves the point. What is Unsend? It means erased from the served before it was accessed by the recipient. There is no other logical meaning to that word.

FMRocks · 13 May 2005, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReuvenNY

If it can be "unsent" that means it has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient.
So let's think for a second: if it "has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient" where is the message? On the server!

Yes it's on the server, but it's in the recepient's mailbox on the server, and as far as I am concerned, that ought to stop any tampering with that email - whether or not it has been accepted or read by the recepient. If I am the recepient, and a message is sitting in my mailbox ON THE SERVER - even though I have not downloaded or seen it - it's no one else's business to come in and delete it.

**ReuvenNY** · 13 May 2005, 04:44 AM

This is a philosophical question - at what point the email is yours (originator) as opposed to the receipient's. I agree with you: once you send it - it's their's. AOL thinks the other way - what you have not seen yet - is not yours.
My comments above were to clarify that the message AOL allowes you to Unsend is not in the receipient's Inbox when that happens.

kaptitsky · 13 May 2005, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ReuvenNY
This is a philosophical question - at what point the email is yours (originator) as opposed to the receipient's. I agree with you: once you send it - it's their's. AOL thinks the other way - what you have not seen yet - is not yours.
My comments above were to clarify that the message AOL allowes you to Unsend is not in the receipient's Inbox when that happens.

Just for the record, Outlook with Exchange works the same way. You can delete mail you sent on the server BEFORE it has been delievered.

It was the most common metaphor for mail before the current internet model became the standard, and still is desirable for workgroup sized mail.

In this case, AOL has spent years making big server farms to support the way AOL mail works, which was defined in like 1983, and that's the way it works. Sure, I might want to copy a mail into a folder via IMAP, but that's not the way AOL has worked.

AOL is doing mail the AOL way.

No surprise.

FMRocks · 13 May 2005, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by kaptitsky
Just for the record, Outlook with Exchange works the same way. You can delete mail you sent on the server BEFORE it has been delievered.

I am trying to differentiate between *delivered* and *read*. Taking a snail mail metaphor, a piece of mail has been delivered the moment the mailman drops it in my mailbox. I read it when I open it. If the mail has never been delivered to me (dropped in my mailbox), I am fine with people retracting it. But once it is in my mailbox - online or offline - whether or not I have picked it up - or downloaded it, in email's case - or read it or have any intention of doing either, it's nobody's business but mine what I will do with it.

And yes it's a philosophical question, privacy matters often are. Nonetheless, it also has the potential for abuse if there is a security bug that allows a sender to not just delete one but more emails from the recepient's box. That is the secondary point, however, the primary point being that once a piece of mail is in my mailbox - on the server or on my machine - I consider it a blatant violation of my privacy for ANYONE to come in and delete it without my express knowledge and permission.

kaptitsky · 13 May 2005, 06:58 AM

Since AOL has used this model since the early 1990's, the probability of any security breach is unlikely. It just doesn't work the way you suggest it does with people having access to your inbox, only that they have access to their mail, which is theirs until the reciepient opens it.

AOL mail sees the message delivered when you open it, not when it is first dropped in your in-box. Heck, these are people who are fine with deleting anything they consider SPAM with no chance of you being notfied, and who throw away new mail in your inbox if you don't check it soon enough.

This is AOL mail, folks, on AOL servers. Don't like it? Don't use it. I mean, there are so many reasons why this new AIM mail sucks, from the footer to the lack of header control and on and on. But to be fair it sucks in the same way AOL mail sucks, the same as Netscape.net, and all the other mails that use the proprietary AOL mail server sucks.

GMail is a new paradigm for a new millienium. This is 1990s tech with a cleaned up face on it. It works, more or less -- they are prolly the biggest mail system on earth, with the most traffic. But it ain't cutting edge.

If you feel this feature is an unacceptable breach of your privacy, use another mail provider.

That's probably a good idea anyway, come to think of it.

But saying "it could break and go bad" misses the point that AOL has years of experience with it and has made it work as well as they can.

(AOL is not CIS, though they bought them. The AOL mail only dates to the 90s, not the 1980s. Sorry for any confusion.)

(anyone got the IMAP server name yet? Anyone?)

rgarcia · 13 May 2005, 08:56 AM

Yeah I was wondering has anyone figured out the imap aspect of the new aol mail? Server name etc.

FITCHSF · 13 May 2005, 09:20 PM

Ok, I have a screen name with AIM (not a paid account with AOL) and I don't know how to use the service ~ how do I log into my mailbox?

pyedka · 13 May 2005, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by FITCHSF
Ok, I have a screen name with AIM (not a paid account with AOL) and I don't know how to use the service ~ how do I log into my mailbox?

Just tried it. Seems you have to download the latest AIM 5.9beta. Then you can reach the mailbox with some clicks.

Now I can go to http://mail.aol.com and sign in with my screen name. Can someone try if you can access without installing AIM?

usf · 13 May 2005, 10:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by pyedka
Just tried it. Seems you have to download the latest AIM 5.9beta. Then you can reach the mailbox with some clicks.

Now I can go to http://mail.aol.com and sign in with my screen name. Can someone try if you can access without installing AIM?

I also can login without install AIM.

usf · 13 May 2005, 11:09 PM

here is another info. link after I login .
http://beta.aol.com/projects/aimmail/

SAS · 13 May 2005, 11:16 PM

I just logged in using the link above, and I don't even have AIM installed on my computer anymore.

13 May 2005, 06:58 AM	#24
kaptitsky The "e" in e-mail Join Date: Aug 2002 Posts: 2,186	Since AOL has used this model since the early 1990's, the probability of any security breach is unlikely. It just doesn't work the way you suggest it does with people having access to your inbox, only that they have access to their mail, which is theirs until the reciepient opens it. AOL mail sees the message delivered when you open it, not when it is first dropped in your in-box. Heck, these are people who are fine with deleting anything they consider SPAM with no chance of you being notfied, and who throw away new mail in your inbox if you don't check it soon enough. This is AOL mail, folks, on AOL servers. Don't like it? Don't use it. I mean, there are so many reasons why this new AIM mail sucks, from the footer to the lack of header control and on and on. But to be fair it sucks in the same way AOL mail sucks, the same as Netscape.net, and all the other mails that use the proprietary AOL mail server sucks. GMail is a new paradigm for a new millienium. This is 1990s tech with a cleaned up face on it. It works, more or less -- they are prolly the biggest mail system on earth, with the most traffic. But it ain't cutting edge. If you feel this feature is an unacceptable breach of your privacy, use another mail provider. That's probably a good idea anyway, come to think of it. But saying "it could break and go bad" misses the point that AOL has years of experience with it and has made it work as well as they can. (AOL is not CIS, though they bought them. The AOL mail only dates to the 90s, not the 1980s. Sorry for any confusion.) (anyone got the IMAP server name yet? Anyone?) Last edited by kaptitsky : 13 May 2005 at 07:48 AM.

13 May 2005, 09:20 PM	#26
FITCHSF Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 15	How do I use this new aol mail Ok, I have a screen name with AIM (not a paid account with AOL) and I don't know how to use the service ~ how do I log into my mailbox?

13 May 2005, 02:53 AM	#18
Sherry Moderator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: USA Posts: 8,687	Ok, the only way I can see this working is: Someone sends an email to another AOL user. That mail is available right away however if the person hasn't logged into their account for say 6 hours then they do not know they even have a new email. During that 6 hour period the sender could cancel the email. If a receiver of the email logs in, one minute after the sender has sent it, and sees they have a new email then it can't be cancelled. Based on that idea, it doesn't really have anything to do with actually reading the mail but whether or not the receiver has seen they have new mail??? Sherry

13 May 2005, 03:23 AM	#19
ReuvenNY Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 4,272	I think that what Sherry explained above, is the way it basically works. Which is what I also meant above - If it was seen by the recipient (read or not), it was either downloaded or viewed on the server. At this point it can not be retracted. If it can be "unsent" that means it has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient. So let's think for a second: if it "has not been downloaded/viewed by the recipient" where is the message? On the server! The way AOL explains it is geared to the lay reader who will be thrown of balance with terms like Server. The mere fact that they use the word "unsend" proves the point. What is Unsend? It means erased from the served before it was accessed by the recipient. There is no other logical meaning to that word.

13 May 2005, 04:44 AM	#21
ReuvenNY Moderator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: New York Posts: 4,272	This is a philosophical question - at what point the email is yours (originator) as opposed to the receipient's. I agree with you: once you send it - it's their's. AOL thinks the other way - what you have not seen yet - is not yours. My comments above were to clarify that the message AOL allowes you to Unsend is not in the receipient's Inbox when that happens.

13 May 2005, 08:56 AM	#25
rgarcia Essential Contributor Join Date: Feb 2004 Posts: 222	Yeah I was wondering has anyone figured out the imap aspect of the new aol mail? Server name etc.

13 May 2005, 11:09 PM	#29
usf Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Singapore Posts: 610	here is another info. link after I login . http://beta.aol.com/projects/aimmail/

13 May 2005, 11:16 PM	#30
SAS Cornerstone of the Community Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: USA Posts: 736	I just logged in using the link above, and I don't even have AIM installed on my computer anymore.